Bosch Flesh Detecting Table Saw

[trungdok]

Hi,

Saw this interesting article today about Bosch soon to be released table saw. It's similar to the Sawstop in functionality, but the engineering is different and with a few extra advantages. No price listed yet, but I'm thinking it's not going to be cheap. BUT... competition (against Sawstop) is good in my opinion.

Btw, at first I read that title as "Bosch Flesh Eating Tablesaw"!!

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/117465/bosch-releases-a-flesh-detecting-tablesaw

[Eric]

Just found a youtube video about it. $1499, and $99 to replace the cartridge. Nice thing is that the cartridge can be used two times and it doesn't ruin the blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFiJD5w-cZU

[big tim]

Just read yesterday that SawStop is sueing Bosch for infringement on their patents.
Going to be interesting how this will play out.
Cheers,

Tim

[twistsol]

I'm guessing that Bosch has a few competent lawyers on staff. Should be an interesting case. I do like that the blade survives and it looks like Bosch caught up with the self squaring fence Ryobi introduced 20 years ago

[LinuxRandal]

It has been mentioned before that Bosch is a MAJOR player in the air bag department, and a lot of this is supposed to be based on that tech and patents. This will have some of the same issues, that the "does it on a computer" patents cases do.

[Bill in Buena Park]

This Bosch saw is attractive not just for its flesh-sensing technology, but for features reminiscent of the BT3, like the sliding fence rails (apparently needs only one lever, vs. the 2 found on the BT3), and the precision fence with the rear clamper. I wonder if the fence rails could be extended, like on the BT3 - the max width of rip with stock rails extended is 25 inches, I think they said. I have the 21829, so the mobile base is reminiscent/attractive, and I like the integrated outfeed support, which BT3/21829 lacks. All the other little features (front push-stick storage, on-table miter slots, etc.) are just gravy.

However, I initially bought my 21829 for rip capacity (long, movable rails). If this saw could offer the same rip capacity, I would likely look to this saw to replace my 21829 when parts or repair become an issue.

[gerti]

Looking at the video, it seems to me that the first fire was with the sausage barely touching the blade guard. Mis-fire? The second one looked as I would expect, the sausage gets close to the blade.

Well in any case glad there are multiple players in the market now, can only be good for us!

[leehljp]

Well in any case glad there are multiple players in the market now, can only be good for us!

SawStop must sue and hope they win, which I think they won't. Unless they do some major rework of their own technology, Bosch's competition will eat their lunch. Being the first and only ones, SS could afford to make it costly $$ wise at the customer's expense, even if each blade and the brake had to be replaced each time. Now, Bosch does the same thing with different technology, and less expensive too. Bosch's method makes SS's look antiquated in comparison to what each tripping destroys and costs.

Could it be that Bosch is also starting out with the portable job site saw in order to not be directly in competition with SS's two saw platforms?

[Neal]

Competition is good for all. For those of us in business, it forces us to keep ourselves and our skills sharp. It inspires innovation. It motivates us to not rest on our laurels. For consumers it helps to drive costs lower and make things more affordable.

The Bosch technology looks far better, to me. Two fires from one cartridge. Doesn't ruin a blade. It accomplishes the same thing as the saw stop but for less money of consumable parts. I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

The outcome of the lawsuit will be whatever, but typically the biggest winner in those instances are the lawyers, and potentially the biggest losers are consumers. I'm far from an expert on copyright or patent law, but this seems to accomplish the same thing in a very different way.

[twistsol]

SawStop must sue and hope they win, which I think they won't. Unless they do some major rework of their own technology, Bosch's competition will eat their lunch. Being the first and only ones, SS could afford to make it costly $$ wise at the customer's expense, even if each blade and the brake had to be replaced each time. Now, Bosch does the same thing with different technology, and less expensive too. Bosch's method makes SS's look antiquated in comparison to what each tripping destroys and costs.

Could it be that Bosch is also starting out with the portable job site saw in order to not be directly in competition with SS's two saw platforms?

At $1499 for a jobsite saw, I think Bosch has really come in at a level that is price competitive, but not a slam dunk for either company. Sawstop's job site saw is $1299 at this Woodcraft link. As for the cost of each firing, depending on the blade you ruin with the Sawstop, you may be at either one or two firings at the break even point. If the firing cost gets to the point it is even a factor, you would probably be wise to stay away from table saws altogether.

[leehljp]

If the firing cost gets to the point it is even a factor, you would probably be wise to stay away from table saws altogether.

Wow, I didn't look at the price of the Bosch. That still is kinda steep to bring it into mainstream.

While your quote is ideal, it is not functionally practical. But Risk/cost is a situational rationale that is best left to the individual without intimating that one should stay away if price is a factor.

I remember as a young adult seeing and hearing TV ads that dealt with health issues such:
Insurance companies - you need all you can get, your family needs protection
Shoe companies: Your feet carry you and support your weight all day long - you need these and swap shoes each day so the older ones can air out.
Cleaning: you need this, that and more because of bacteria, and smell and
Eye Doctor, ENT Doctor, Dentist, General Practician and more - regularly checkups - . . . These cost money that many, many, many cannot afford at the consistent recommended rate;
And more
IF Everyone in lower middle class and lower had to fulfill each ideal, they would be dirt poor and kids going hungry.

What price for risk? Or What risk are we willing to take for what price consideration? Do you have the best and safest cars with the most air bags along with the safest crash test above all? Why not? Simple answer - the cost versus risk. The allowance for people to assume some risk for an affordable use - that is should be left to the individual without intimating that one should stay away if price is a factor.

I "could" afford a SS contractor saw, but I don't think I would mentally tolerate the possibility of $300 each time. Where as $100 . . OK that is doable, not likable but doable!

[twistsol]

But Risk/cost is a situational rationale that is best left to the individual without intimating that one should stay away if price is a factor.

I was referring more to the concept that if someone is using the saw and contacting the blade on a regular enough basis that the firing cost does become a factor, a table saw probably isn't for them regardless of whether it is $100 or $300. I equate this with insurance. Homeowner's insurance is something every homeowner has and very few use. That doesn't mean you should become complacent and start campfires in your living room.

I plan on buying a SawStop eventually, but whether still using my BT3100 or my future SawStop, I don't intend to ever have any part of my body contact the blade. For my personal use, I'm still willing to accept the risk of a saw without a brake. If I owned a business and had employees using it, there is no question that there would be nothing but SawStops or the Bosch saw for them to use.

[trungdok]

At $1499 for a jobsite saw, I think Bosch has really come in at a level that is price competitive, but not a slam dunk for either company. Sawstop's job site saw is $1299 at this Woodcraft link. As for the cost of each firing, depending on the blade you ruin with the Sawstop, you may be at either one or two firings at the break even point. If the firing cost gets to the point it is even a factor, you would probably be wise to stay away from table saws altogether.

For a contractor, the down time with each firing probably would be the bigger concern than the cost difference. I think this is where Bosch outshines the SS. For home DIYer, the $200 price difference is quite a number.

[capncarl]

How many times have you ever come close enough to your saw blade to cause a sawstop to fire? Maybe the technology should include a phone connection to Norm and he would come over and have a little safety talk! A saw accident scares the stink out of me and I want to do all I can to avoid an accident. Not to carry the thread into a debate about sawstop, but did anyone see the National Geographic series of American Genius? The episode about the Wright Bros vrs Curtis brought up a very good point that applies to Sawstop as well. The Wrights had the everyone that tried to build and improve the airplane tied up in patent court to the point that at the beginning of WWI Germany was so far ahead of us with airplane building that congress had to get involved to allow Americans to build airplanes to compete. I will be glad to see other manufacturers building and offering safer saws despite sawstop!
capncarl

[twistsol]

For a contractor, the down time with each firing probably would be the bigger concern than the cost difference. I think this is where Bosch outshines the SS. For home DIYer, the $200 price difference is quite a number.

Excellent points. There are definitely different views of costs and safety motivations based on the user.