New Shop in the Works

[LCHIEN]

I once read all the stuff on DCs and tried to understand how it all worked.
I think the gist of the equations by that DC guru what's his name was that with a 2 HPish machine you will need about a 5" pipe.
If you go too small you will have alot of restriction to prevent you from getting max CFM
If you go too large you get max CFM but the VELOCITY falls off and you start dropping larger particles out of the air stream. You need velocity to carry the big chips and CFM to pick up the fine dust.

Five inch pipe is hard to find. I always though that twin 4" pipe would be about the same cross section as 5" pipe and thus work better than 6" pipe.

I would seriously think about plumbing twin 4" pipes between plenum boxes set between the floor joists. Put a bottom on those plenums and then put a top with two 4" connections to go vertical coming out the top. One end can go to a DC and the other end to a machine or machines with a wye and some dust gates. Some machines will only support a single 4" connection and some like a TS can have one going to the bottom and the other to a dust shroud or the top of the blade guard. A little flex hose can make the last two feet to a machine.

[capncarl]

Not to side track poolhound's thread with dust collector discussion, but it is good discussion because dust collection is probably one of the highest on the personal safet list for any woodworker. The Delta 50-760 is a 1 1/2 hp machine and is woefully lackin in the ability to support much over a 4" line. This statement comes from my discovery by installing 6" lines. It is fitted with a 5" inlet. That should have told me something, like the factory knows anything larger than 5" is too much. My guess is that by running parallel 4" lines will eventually lead to large chips piling up in the long runs. Progressing to a DC with more horsepower motor with a larger fan is the only real way to be able to utilize larger piping. This will require 220 vac. while this Delta can be run on 120vac.
capncarl

[poolhound]

Jussi,

That's a good plan and I have something similar in mind. As I have been operating out of my garage for the last millennium I have a good deal of lumber storage already in there and once all the tools move out I can have an overhaul of all the storage space that will free up.

The building I am converting into a shop had been used as a game room for the last 12 years or so and once the kids left home it was more often used for random storage so for example when I picked up a deal on a few 100 bdft of cherry last year that's where it was stored. I intend to build a covered storage rack on the shady side of the building and that (plus space in the garage) should give me a lot of wood hoarding capacity.

As mentioned storing your lumber outside will save tons of space. I simply added a little overhang on my garage and store my lumber outside.

[poolhound]

Hey Loring, hope all is well in TX. Its good to be picking up the threads with "y'all" again.

I have been doing the same as you and trying to understand all the DC equation components (its the engineer in me showing again). I think the DC guru you refer to may be Bill Pentz and I was reading a lot of his stuff again yesterday. You have a good summary i.e. larger is better as long as you have enough HP and DC volume/speed to keep the dust and chips flowing.

Not surprisingly he is the first person to offer some definitive statement on the metal vs PVC debate at least with respect to the materials effect on resistance. As always there are lots of other considerations and he states he now uses large metal through choice although PVC comes out a clear winner in the friction battle. See the excerpt below.

FROM BILL PENTZ - There are lots of ducting choices and often we slip into a mode where we think if something costs less it is not as good. The smoothest walls that make for the least resistance come with using plastic coated pipe and fittings such as PVC pipe or plastic coated metal or wood duct. The next best is smooth walled laser welded steel pipe followed by a tossup between top quality metal spiral dust collection ducting and fittings and HVAC metal ducting, followed at a far distance by corrugated metal pipe and flex hose. The low cost S&D PVC (plastic) pipe (see my PVC site if you want to do "magic" with fitting PVC into your ducting.) is generally one of the best small shop dust collection material choices because it is smooth, far stronger than most HVAC metal pipe or spiral pipe, costs less, and fittings are a fraction of the price. Airflow depends upon ducting friction. Here are the Hazen/Williams friction factors for various duct types (a higher C number is better).

Duct Material H/W
Corrugated Steel Duct 60
Spiral Duct 90-100
Laser Welded Steel Duct 110-125
PVC 146

I am going to call around my local plumbing suppliers and see what availability is on 5" and then continue my head scratching. I am probably about 4 weeks away from the point where I need to install it so I have time yet to make a decision and change my mind 4 or 5 times.

I think the gist of the equations by that DC guru what's his name was that with a 2 HPish machine you will need about a 5" pipe.
If you go too small you will have alot of restriction to prevent you from getting max CFM
If you go too large you get max CFM but the VELOCITY falls off and you start dropping larger particles out of the air stream. You need velocity to carry the big chips and CFM to pick up the fine dust.

Five inch pipe is hard to find. I always though that twin 4" pipe would be about the same cross section as 5" pipe and thus work better than 6" pipe.

[poolhound]

No worries on sidetracking as DC systems and setup is a key element of any new shop. I am happy to keep this thread going as I go through the various stages of the shop build-out and setup. Topics such as, electrics, DC, tool positioning, space requirements, storage (tools & wood) etc all have their place and I always like to see threads that cover all the bases of the larger topic in one place i.e. "setting up a new shop" as well is the individual specific threads.

To your point about 5" pipe on the 50-760 I think you are right and the inlet size probably does give us a clue. FYI this Delta DC does come with the ability to be converted to 220. I believe all it needs is some jumper wires changed inside and then a new switch/power-cord and plug. As best I understand it, while being 220 has some electrical differences the motor still turns the same and the impellor is the same size so 110 or 220 wont change the airflow capacity.

I have found a few threads elsewhere that talk about folks who have pimped out their DCs and specifically the 50-760 with the super dust deputy and the wynn filter. here is just one.

http://lumberjocks.com/TechRedneck/blog/29742

The SDD is on my list but the filter may be soon behind.

Not to side track poolhound's thread with dust collector discussion, but it is good discussion because dust collection is probably one of the highest on the personal safet list for any woodworker. The Delta 50-760 is a 1 1/2 hp machine and is woefully lackin in the ability to support much over a 4" line. This statement comes from my discovery by installing 6" lines. It is fitted with a 5" inlet. That should have told me something, like the factory knows anything larger than 5" is too much. My guess is that by running parallel 4" lines will eventually lead to large chips piling up in the long runs. Progressing to a DC with more horsepower motor with a larger fan is the only real way to be able to utilize larger piping. This will require 220 vac. while this Delta can be run on 120vac.
capncarl

[capncarl]

Attached is photo of my Delta 50-760 with the Thein separator installed. I after making several smaller Theins for shop vacs for others I decided to build a taller one for my collector. It has clear acrylic sides so I could watch it work, but I forgot that the viewing area would be against the wall, so the wall can see it well! It is amazing how the sawdust just scoots down into the can. Note that the garbage can is about 1/2" off the base. After fiddling around half a day trying to design a way of fastening the can to the separator I discovered that it would suck the can up and hold it without any fasteners! Now I know when the can is nearing full because it will not pick up with a loud clunk.

[poolhound]

Its interesting to see how much dust/chips have still made it through to the bag. With your Thein approx how much goes in the trashcan vs the bag?

I am still on the fence as to where to build a Thein or buy something. Is there anybody out there who is using the super dust deputy and might have a comparison?

My last request to the BT3 community is how many of you have either installed their DCs outside or are venting to the outside. After more research I am leaning towards doing away with the filter and just venting through the wall. Even with great filtering is very hard to get rid of the fines that do pass through and external venting would mean they are never there to start with (excepting whats not caught at the machine).

Attached is photo of my Delta 50-760 with the Thein separator installed. I after making several smaller Theins for shop vacs for others I decided to build a taller one for my collector. It has clear acrylic sides so I could watch it work, but I forgot that the viewing area would be against the wall, so the wall can see it well! It is amazing how the sawdust just scoots down into the can. Note that the garbage can is about 1/2" off the base. After fiddling around half a day trying to design a way of fastening the can to the separator I discovered that it would suck the can up and hold it without any fasteners! Now I know when the can is nearing full because it will not pick up with a loud clunk.

[capncarl]

On my Delta / Thein I have not seen any (0) chips get past the Thein. The plastic bag in the photo contains only powder dust. I was surprised, and can't see how a cyclone could do any better unless it restricts less. The size is also a selling feature as I did not have to jack up the frame for a cyclone to fit, all is within the original Delta framework.

Without a doubt I would vote for having the dust collector outside.......BUT
In my case it would pull all my 72 degree conditioned air and replace it with 100 degree GNAT filled air and all my tools would rust!
capncarl

[capncarl]

Thein separator performance? In 5 months of lots of use for me I have emptied the chip can 7-8 times and not emptied the dust bag any. The dust bag appears to have 10 gallons of pure dust. I occasonaly beat on the dust bag just to see what falls out into the plastic bag, quite a bit does fall out. I've actually filled up a 4'x4'x2' compost bin with wood chips.
capncarl

[poolhound]

I certainly have the heat issue but luckily not the insects. Setting the whole unit outside may be an option although the logical place for it to be located is part of the space I have allocated for my exterior wood storage.

I do wonder how the motor would react to operating in the outside 110 degree summer heat. I guess it did fine when it was working in my non air conditioned garage.

[Bill in Buena Park]

Jon,
Reading the Bill Pentz website some time ago, I ran across his thoughts on dust collector design. I'd love to hear if any here venting their DCs externally without a filter of some type have experienced the issue Bill describes in paragraph D. 13 of this document on his website (motor overload and failure due to lack of resistance.)

[Bill in Buena Park]

Regarding Thien separator performance - about 1 inch of fine powder makes it past the separator into the bottom bag for every 2 trashcans worth of chips/dust. I'm using this remodel of the HF 2HP DC. Since this photo, I've replaced the stock filter bag and lower plastic bag with two 1 micron bags, and its working well.

[atgcpaul]

Thein separator performance? In 5 months of lots of use for me I have emptied the chip can 7-8 times and not emptied the dust bag any. The dust bag appears to have 10 gallons of pure dust. I occasonaly beat on the dust bag just to see what falls out into the plastic bag, quite a bit does fall out. I've actually filled up a 4'x4'x2' compost bin with wood chips.
capncarl

If I read this right, the Thein separator really isn't doing a good job for you because most of the dust should be staying in your can and not getting to the filter/bag side, right?

I have the stock HF DC with the Wynn filter and the Thein baffle installed in the ring that separates the filter from the bag/can below. It's hard to say if the Thein baffle is keeping the dust out of the filter as much as I would like.

I was considering changing to a setup like yours or the super dust deputy. I have the little dust deputy for my shopvac and it's awesome--especially for cleaning out ash from my Big Green Egg.

[capncarl]

The dust that gets by my Thein is face powder fine dust that is coming off my drum sander and sanding at the downdraft table. When this dust gets airborne it looks like fog in the air, some of it is actually going through the 1 micron bag. I am satisfied with the chip collection and saw dust with the Thein, and do not expect that a cyclone would catch these chips and saw dust any better. I believe that a Thein separator or a cyclone would have the same poor performance catching airborne dust.
This set up with the Thein before the fan keeps the fan clean. I cut a lot of antique heart pine and before installing the Thein separator and the pine dust and chips created a mess in the fan chamber and on the blades.
To improve this dust collection would require more fan capacity/horsepower and larger piping.
If I could only keep this pine resin from clogging my sand paper and caking up on the saw blades.
capncarl

[poolhound]

Spent much of this Thanksgiving weekend cutting and planing out the bows in the flooring joists. In some the bow was so extreme I had to remove 1.75" in the middle of the 2x6. I ended up strengthening them all by laminating a pair of 3/4 ply pieces to each side.

The floor itself went back in around 5pm this afternoon although its not yet fixed down as I need to run power and possibly the DC piping underneath. I am essentially back to where I started except now the building and floor is both square and flat (give or take and 1/16-1/8 here or there).

I can wholeheartedly say that I (and my back) gives great thanks that this part is now over.