I've been infected by the green fever

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  • LCHIEN
    Internet Fact Checker
    • Dec 2002
    • 20914
    • Katy, TX, USA.
    • BT3000 vintage 1999

    #46
    Originally posted by lrr
    ... my wife never complains about my tool purchases.

    That, and I bring new stuff into the house late at night...
    image of Lee tiptoeing into the house at 2 AM carrying a band saw...

    Last edited by LCHIEN; 03-01-2014, 02:27 PM.
    Loring in Katy, TX USA
    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

    Comment

    • Cochese
      Veteran Member
      • Jun 2010
      • 1988

      #47
      Originally posted by LCHIEN
      image of Lee tiptoeing into the house at 2 AM carrying a band saw...

      Going back through my old threads, and this post reminded me of my last several large purchases.

      Lathe - barely fit in the back of the SUV. Had to open it in the driveway and carry the parts up individually. I think I gave myself a hernia.

      MFT - barely fit in the leg area of the SUV. Thing is heavier than you would think.

      To stay on topic, since my last post, I picked up a CT Midi on 40% clearance, and the MFT and some clamps. Never thought I would try to make the room for either, but I love both.
      I have a little blog about my shop

      Comment

      • lrr
        Established Member
        • Apr 2006
        • 380
        • Fort Collins, Colorado
        • Ryobi BT-3100

        #48
        Cochese,

        Glad to hear you have gotten a few more Festools. I was going to buy a Domino last year, but have mostly been sidetracked with projects for the house -- so more carpentry and drywall type of work than real woodworking. I thought about getting a Planex for removing popcorn texture from ceilings but after doing several rooms manually, the next rooms will get hired out since they have cathedral ceilings. Sometimes it just makes sense to get hired help! I helped friend cut pieces of plywood to fit into basement window casings. Not a single piece had a 90 degree corner. We were both amazed at how easy they were to cut using the track saw. And he was just flat out amazed at the tearout-free cuts.

        My tools purchases are more difficult now. My wife retired in December, and wants to go with me when I'm out shopping, so it is almost impossible to get something and sneak it into the house later!

        My most difficult tool pickup was a big Laguna dust collector. I could not get the motor and housing out of the SUV by myself. Getting it out, and down to the basement, required getting my neighbor to help me. I had to put an eye bolt in the ceiling to lift pieces up to get it built and upright. I think if we ever sell the house the dust collector will stay. I got my jointer years ago, and cannot imagine getting that piece of cast iron back up the stairs. Again, I suppose that's another case for getting some hired help -- big hired help.
        Last edited by lrr; 01-07-2015, 04:05 PM.
        Lee

        Comment

        • Cochese
          Veteran Member
          • Jun 2010
          • 1988

          #49
          I was going to do a review, but probably need to spend more time with my latest purchase, the 150/3 sander. This thing is out of this world good, it may be their best product. The ergonomics are better than any sander I've tried. Paper is pretty good, but I need to try another one.
          I have a little blog about my shop

          Comment

          • jussi
            Veteran Member
            • Jan 2007
            • 2162

            #50
            +1. I have most of their sanders and I think it's best one. It's one of my favorite sanders. Second only to my mirka ceros. The festool sander paper are great and while more expensive, their longevity compared to cheaper brands kind of balances it out. I also like the autonet sandpaper from mirka. It's basically abranet but marketed towards car body guys and is significantly less expensive. Only catch is that since its so much thinner than regular sandpaper you need to use an interface pad to keep from damaging the sander pad.

            With all these new green tools have you built or bought a sysport? If not you may want to consider making a cabinet with wheels for the systainers and putting your on top. The legs fold up and rest on some rubber pads. And if you need to take the mft out and take it outside its real easy.



            Originally posted by Cochese
            I was going to do a review, but probably need to spend more time with my latest purchase, the 150/3 sander. This thing is out of this world good, it may be their best product. The ergonomics are better than any sander I've tried. Paper is pretty good, but I need to try another one.
            Last edited by jussi; 03-09-2015, 10:33 AM.
            I reject your reality and substitute my own.

            Comment

            • Cochese
              Veteran Member
              • Jun 2010
              • 1988

              #51
              Originally posted by jussi
              +1. I have most of their sanders and I think it's best one. It's one of my favorite sanders. Second only to my mirka ceros. The festool sander paper are great and while more expensive their longevity compared to cheaper brands kind of balances it out. I also like the autonet sandpaper from mirka. It's basically abranet but marketed towards car body guys and is significantly less expensive. Only catch is that since its so much thinner than regular sandpaper you need to use an interface pad to keep from damaging the sander pad.

              With all these new green tools have you built or bought a sysport?
              It's on the list. I need to get some plywood to do it, I've been trying to sort out a layout to determine if I had the room. It looks like I can get on that perhaps at the end of the month.
              I have a little blog about my shop

              Comment

              • leehljp
                Just me
                • Dec 2002
                • 8429
                • Tunica, MS
                • BT3000/3100

                #52
                I just realized how "Green" I have been getting lately. I have the Festool RO 150 sander and the systainer for the 150.

                I have several new green Ryobi tools, a green Hitachi saw, and a few Grizzly green tools also.
                Hank Lee

                Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                Comment

                • JimD
                  Veteran Member
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 4187
                  • Lexington, SC.

                  #53
                  I like Hank's take on going green. I also have a Hitachi CMS - but no Festools.

                  I have completed my parallel guide for my DeWalt track saw making it even more useful. It would be easier to create one for a Makita or Grizzly track saw because the double sided DeWalt track makes it harder. I could have bought one if I owned a Festool but would have been about 3X the cost.

                  I think the Festool stuff may make sense for working professionals who need to get things done and can't spend their time making jigs. My parallel jig cost me over 8 hours time. Any kind of reasonable wage makes the Festool jig a better buy. That kind of math works if your alternative is making more money. My alternative is going fishing or something. So making a jig is an enjoyable and reasonable pastime for me. I also am OK with other people deciding they'd rather build projects than make jigs.

                  But I think for people doing woodworking as a hobby, Festools are not cost effective. I might buy a domino but the reviews I've seen say Festool sanders are not the best, just the most expensive. My bosch jigsaw is as good as any, IMHO. I do not think my DeWalt tracksaw is inferior to a Festool in any way. My crosscutting tools are dustier than a Festool would be but work fine. I supped up my old Rigid 6 gallon shop vacuum with a dust deputy and cart. I have a Bosch hose on the way and plan to add an autoswitch. It already has a hepa filter.

                  My point is just that there are other very good tools and good ways to do work other than Festool. But if you want to spend your money that way that is clearly your option. It is an option I respect - there is nothing wrong with taking a typically easier path.

                  Comment

                  • Cochese
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 1988

                    #54
                    Festool is really something that takes using to grasp how good they are. Not everything, mind you, but a lot.

                    I was on this forum and others in 2010, 2011, 2012 not understanding why people would spend so much on tools, when there was really no tangible benefit. All I could understand was the cost. I was a Festool hater, like I was a Sawstop hater. People have done with less for centuries, so could I. I bought other brands. Almost all of my purchases I would consider good ones, I only had a couple of duds even to this day. A Ryobi planer that I had no use for. A Harbor Freight plate joiner. I did my research and was happy.

                    Until I wasn't.

                    I have what is probably considered a micro shop. Not the smallest, but way under the curve for average. I hated cleaning up after every single step of a project or process. The scraps, the dust. I wanted to just quit a few times. I tried a track saw based on a clamp, and lived with it for a couple of years. I then tried to make one. None made me happy with the use nor the outcome. I decided that I wanted better. I think I'm actually repeating a lot of what I said in the original post, but it's all true.

                    I went in with the track saw first. Making accurate cuts for once was a pleasure. The dust collection was an obvious benefit, albeit one that I've only recently taken full advantage of. I think I waited a whole two weeks before I decided I wanted a Domino. What got me to buy-in whole hog is the MFT and the vac. Neither of these things are needed, but they make life for me oh so much better.

                    I love that I can take a piece of plywood, set it on the MFT, and within about ten minutes can have made four cuts to the exact same length, plunged eight Domino mortises, have the piece assembled and have it sanded. Without having to change setups, turn anything on beside the tool, or run dust collection or change what is plugged in. Converts talk about the 'system' approach, and it's absolutely real. I recently popped a hook in the ceiling and put a piece of PVC on it and I have a homemade 'boom arm' that presents the dust collection and power supply ready for me at a moment's notice.

                    I am in no way made of money, and these purchases hurt every single time. However, at least for me, that's the only way that particular purchase hurts again. The sander I just bought is actually a pleasure - I was finding random things to sand just to use it. It's that good. As soon as I used it I knew that I'd be shopping for my next one to compliment.

                    I say the same thing about Festool to those who mock me for owning Craftsman and Harbor Freight - don't knock anything until you try it. I've had to eat some major crow.
                    I have a little blog about my shop

                    Comment

                    • tfischer
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 2343
                      • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
                      • BT3100

                      #55
                      I bet a Bugatti would drive really nice too. But alas I need to make due with my lowly Jetta: :/

                      Comment

                      • wardprobst
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 681
                        • Wichita Falls, TX, USA.
                        • Craftsman 22811

                        #56
                        If you read Sawmill Creek workshops thread, there are two consistent topics: dust collection and electrical supply. I would argue that dust collection, portability and accuracy are Festool advantages. If dust doesn't bother you, you have an excess of space and don't need dead on cuts, don't go green.
                        As for me, recent health issues have put me on the Festool track even though I have an Oneida Air system and many stationary tools. I need more space and the cost of Festool tools is minor compared to expanding the shop.
                        Just my take,
                        DP
                        www.wardprobst.com

                        Comment

                        • JimD
                          Veteran Member
                          • Feb 2003
                          • 4187
                          • Lexington, SC.

                          #57
                          Dust collection is not, of course, an attribute exclusive to Festools. The wood whisperer review indicates that the DeWalt track saw is about equal to the Festool in dust collection. Others have found the same. The Festool jigsaw has good dust collection according to reviews but the dust collection obscures the cut so it gets removed. Reviews of Festool sanders indicate Bosch are better at a lower cost. I don't remember seeing router comparisons but I doubt Festool is really better there either, maybe dust collection is better. If I used these tools I might feel different but the fact that other experienced woodworkers rated other tools higher do not make me want to "go green".

                          Systainers look nice but I threw away almost all my tool cases because in the shop they just get in the way. I want my tools accessable.

                          My old Rigid vacuum with dust deputy, Hepa filter, and Bosch hose isn't quite as compact as a Festool vacuum but almost all my dust goes into a drywall bucket I can empty for nothing. I don't have to spend money on bags. The $35 Bosch hose is a close copy of the Festool that even Festool vacuum owners use.

                          I'm a member of the Festool forum and learn things there. I really do think they are good tools and I admire Festool for pushing new ideas. But I think it is possible to do everything Festool's do with other tools at lower cost. Without giving up quality or ease of use. The sole exception is the Domino. I can make slip mortises other ways but not nearly as quickly. But those slip tenons are terribly pricey too. I guess I could make my own.
                          Last edited by JimD; 03-11-2015, 08:04 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Cochese
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jun 2010
                            • 1988

                            #58
                            I picked up yet another, however this will probably be my last one for awhile. While I have definite wants going forward, I need to curtail my expenses as to possibly start working on the foundation for a new shop. That, and I don't really have any needs right now except to perhaps go with the LR32 system for a few upcoming projects.

                            You unfortunately need a Festool router to use that, so I ordered the 1400 right before the price increase. This is probably my least needed tool, in the scope of things. I have two Craftsman routers that I use in the saw and handheld, a Ryobi cordless trimmer, and a 3.25HP Triton in the table. This is going to replace the older Craftsman, actually my first pure woodworking tool.

                            Family portrait time.



                            I compare it to my 28084 Craftsman, the one with three bases and a good bet to be a copy of what they currently have on offer as the 27680, just with some different color knobs and lacking the third D-handle base I have. The Festool has some nice features, but nothing that really makes it a must-have when you compare the two. With the Craftsman in the plunge base, they are close. I'd say you get 80% of the Festool with the Craftsman, and likely it would be similar with other brands. The dust collection is as good, and that isn't a typo. (The edge collector is great on the Festool, though) I like the ergonomics slightly better on the 28084, because of the handles. The D-base is good in this regard as well. I don't understand for the life of me why the 1400 doesn't have any LEDs, this is such an underrated feature of the 17543 and 28084 Craftsmans. The noise level is about the same, the Festool might be just slightly quieter. The trigger and lock is more convenient on the 1400, as you have to take your hand off a handle to switch off the Craftsman. I'm undecided on which height lock mechanism I like better - a separate lever, or the knob. The turret stop on the Craftsman is nicer.

                            The ratchet lock is so much better on the Festool. As is the ability to quickly and easily remove the dust port, and any attachments via the base. The ability to easily work in the system is, and will be great. I just sit here and think...I got 80% there (and the 20% left are conveniences) with a $180 machine versus a $535 machine. For that reason, I'm not entirely convinced that I'll ultimately keep it. I'm not sure I can get over the mental hump. I think if I keep both the Festool and the Craftsman, I'll be reminded of that every time by the one or two things I know that Sears (and the true manufacturer) included that Festool didn't.

                            I think the point I'm trying to make here is that I know Festool isn't perfect, and I'm pretty sure a majority of the buyers know that as well. I do think, however, that by and large they do put more thought into how a tool is used than any other manufacturer. I think in this particular case I've been spoiled by just how good the purchases to this point have been, and the router doesn't live up to some lofty expectations that has preceded it.

                            What I've come to really enjoy about these purchases in particular is that they haven't made me a better woodworker, but they've made me more confident and more willing to just jump into something. For instance, this afternoon: I broke down an old drawer that I had been using for scrap storage. I looked at it, and realized that it was bigger than the drawer I had planned to use in the new workbench storage cabinet. I thought to myself, let's see what we can come up with. After I cleaned up the old glue joints and gave myself fresh cuts to work with, I marked my cuts and in about ten seconds had the tracksaw on the MFT, the piece in place and started my cut. I didn't have to hook the dust collection to the table saw, move the fence to the right spot or mess with a long-disused SMT. I didn't have to use the dust-spewing miter saw, either. I had all the cuts done in under a minute, with very little dust. In another minute, I had the Domino ready to go for joining it together. Same hose, same cord. In a shop my size, that is like having extra space. The cuts on the bottom of the drawer took a bit of finessing. Super easy lining up the kerf line in the MFT. If I wanted to sand it, I could have been set up to do that in about fifteen seconds, not having to do anything else than swap tools. For my shop, and my needs, that's the cost of entry and while steep, is a worthy one.

                            I hate feeling the need to justify tools or tool purchases. I have had to do it with Ryobi, Craftsman, Harbor Freight and now Festool. I know in some part that is my choice to do so, but I just want to share my appreciation (and disappointment, in this latest case) about what I find, and give the opportunity to others to do the same. That's all.


                            Now...for any of you that have or had the 1400, and compared it to another, are my feelings on it off base? Am I looking for reasons not to completely like it (due in some part to cost, and being able to use that elsewhere for other needs), or are they valid complaints?
                            Last edited by Cochese; 04-11-2015, 10:16 PM.
                            I have a little blog about my shop

                            Comment

                            • jussi
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 2162

                              #59
                              I have one of each and they are great but depending on what you want to do with them, they may not be worth the premium price for you. It has the best dust collection of all the routers I own but not significantly better. Especially if it's not a edge routing operation. Ergonomics, features, functionality are on par with the rest. The one router where I would say (for me) might be the exception is the 2200. It has many features that put it above the other routers I own. But I think you're more interested in an everyday, 2-1/4 hp, type router. Which it is not. The Festool routers can be used with the rails however. Which includes the mft. That being said the travel isn't super smooth (at least for me) and unless you are using the mft, the set up time isn't very fast either. Especially since you have to clamp the rails down. When doing dados with router, not using the mft I prefer using a shop built jig, similar to one Marc Spag built. Frankly it's faster and easier to use. But if you're multiple pieces with multiple dados on a piece that can fit on your mft (and you have extra flag stops) it can be a real time saver. Also if you really want to use a non Festool router you can buy a microfence jig (but will cost $300+). All that said, I use a tablesaw for most of my dados anyway.

                              You also mentioned the LR32. Which a 1010 or 1400 is obviously a must. It's a great system if you're doing alot of shelf pins. But if you're just doing 1 or 2 cabinets, the set up time is usually not worth it. I have the system and unless I'm doing more than 2, I usually just use my rockler jigs (both shelf pins and hinge). So you may want to consider how often you're going to use it.

                              So to me it's not a clear cut decision. I would say use it for a while and see how you like it. If you can maybe borrow a guide stop (router to rail attachment) and use it on the rails and see how you like it.
                              I reject your reality and substitute my own.

                              Comment

                              • lrr
                                Established Member
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 380
                                • Fort Collins, Colorado
                                • Ryobi BT-3100

                                #60
                                I finally broke down and ordered my Domino 500 before the price increase. I have it, it looks amazing. But I've had a nasty cold and it has sat for 6 days untouched. Bummer!

                                But, I've been browsing some YouTube videos on how to use, and some project ideas, and can hardly wait to get started on a couple projects I have on my list.

                                Perhaps the most amazing part of opening up the package was the question from my wife -- "How much did that cost?". I told the truth. She just shook her head. Especially since I said I wasn't doing any shopping for awhile. We leave for Europe next week, to celebrate our 40th. And our youngest daughter is getting married this summer. At some point you just don't even add up the expenses...

                                Festool collection really is an addiction ...
                                Lee

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