Anyone use Incra on their BT3000? (long!)

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  • David D
    Forum Newbie
    • Dec 2009
    • 65
    • Richmond, VA

    Anyone use Incra on their BT3000? (long!)

    OK, after owning my BT3K for several years now, I've FINALLY started putting it to use! I've been working on making some media shelves for my daughter to hold her CD's, DVD's and video games. The experience has been a good one. I've learned a few things about me and my saw.

    My shop is excruciatingly small. It's 10'x11' which is small enough, but I am blessed to have a few large power tools (old floor model Rockwell drill press, 14" band saw, floor model Jet belt/disc sander, radial arm saw, and of course, my BT3000), so the shop is more of a storage room and the BT3000 gets rolled out the door into the carport when used. The door is a 32" door, which nets about 27-28" clearance to roll anything out. Any full size saw would not fit through the door, which is one of the main reasons I wound up with the BT3000. It measures 26 1/2" depth, and it will fit through the door, so it works.


    One thing that I've learned is that I don't like how difficult it is to get an accurate, repeatable cut with the fence, both with the saw and especially with the router table attachment. My lack of experience is part of the problem as I know that proper planning can minimize the number of times one must change the saw setup. That being said, I have precious little time to play in the shop, so anything I can do to minimize setup time gives me more time to actually work on a project.


    All this is to preface my desire (need) to keep my BT3000, but improve on it's ease of setup and accuracy. In particular, the Ryobi router mounting kit is fair at what it does, but the split fence attachments are very difficult to set up accurately (and almost impossible to repeat), especially for jointing. This led me toward looking for a dedicated router table solution as this is the weakest link in my setup.

    In my search I discovered Incra. Oh boy, the engineering mindset that I am blessed (cursed?) with is very intrigued with their products. They make sense to me. I have searched all over the interwebs and found a few people that have installed the Incra TS-LS system on smaller saws (Bosch, Ridgid), but none on a BT3000. I would like to install this, router table and all, on my BT3000 -

    The router table would have to be shortened to fit between the rails as the BT3000 is not as deep as a standard table saw, but that is doable. I would also build a new cabinet to mount the saw on and to support the ends of the long rails.

    I've also kicked around the idea of adapting the Incra positioner and fence to the stock BT3000 rails, as I have several spare sets of rails and that would allow me to keep the SMT and the factory outfeed table that I have, but the factory rails don't look like they'd lend themselves to mounting the Incra hardware.

    Any thoughts on this idea? Sorry for being long-winded!

    David
    Last edited by David D; 08-16-2014, 01:16 PM.
  • Neal
    Established Member
    • Apr 2012
    • 181
    • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
    • Ryobi BT3000

    #2
    I have recently purchased the incra ls17 positioner for. H router table. However, I'm going to try and find a way to use it on my table saw (bt3000) when I get a chance.

    I'm not sure how I'm going to do it yet, but I have been thinking about it. Just haven't had time yet.

    Comment

    • mpc
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2005
      • 979
      • Cypress, CA, USA.
      • BT3000 orig 13amp model

      #3
      I don't have any experience with that Incra setup. Just looking at the pic you posted though it appears the Incra rails might have a "T" slot in the rail face that mounts to the saw? If so, with a little creative metalwork you should be able to make "L" brackets that'll attach to the Incra rails (gripping the rails to the "L" bracket via a nut inside the Incra "T" slot) and then using "T" nuts in the bottom of the Ryobi rails. Or, if you're willing to drill the Ryobi rails: drill a medium sized hole through the face that goes against the saw body, then drill a smaller hole in-line with it through the outer face. Now you can feed a screw through the larger hole, out the front of the Ryobi rails, into nuts in the Incra rails. The Ryobi rails will still attach normally to the BT3 saw, the stock fence will work when the Incra is removed, etc.

      Something about BT3 accuracy that comes to mind reading your post:
      The BT3 stand isn't the most rigid thing in the world... often alignment repeatability problems are due to the flex in the stand on uneven floors. Each time you move the saw to the carport, unless it ends up in pretty much the exact same spot as before, it's likely an uneven carport floor is twisting the whole saw enough to throw it out of alignment. Find a way to permanently note where you move the saw to for future use, or make a wood cabinet on wheels to replace the factory legs. Odds are that'll be stiffer (especially if you make a "torsion box" for the bottom piece supporting the casters) and you'll gain useful storage. You can buy "double-locking" or "dual locking" casters: these lock both the wheel from rolling and lock the castering axis as well. Much more stable than simple locking casters that only keep the wheel from turning.

      Most folks chuck the scrawny fences that come with the BT3 router mounting kit; they're more trouble than they're worth. Keep the hardware though - the knobs and T-nuts are useful on all sorts of other jigs. Get a few pieces of smooth and straight stock - MDF or plywood for stability - and make an "h" shape that straddles the stock table saw fence. Cut a mouse-hole in the tall side for bit clearance. A few threaded screws holes through the backside (the short side of the "h") lock it to the fence. You can cut a T slot on the taller side to hold a pair of sliding pieces that mimic the scrawny ones in the router mounting kit.

      Remember too a router fence doesn't have to be parallel or perpendicular to anything - you can clamp a straight board across the router tabletop to act as a fence.

      mpc
      Last edited by mpc; 08-16-2014, 07:55 PM.

      Comment

      • David D
        Forum Newbie
        • Dec 2009
        • 65
        • Richmond, VA

        #4
        Originally posted by Neal
        I have recently purchased the incra ls17 positioner for. H router table. However, I'm going to try and find a way to use it on my table saw (bt3000) when I get a chance.

        I'm not sure how I'm going to do it yet, but I have been thinking about it. Just haven't had time yet.
        Have you had a chance to use the Incra on your router table yet? I'd be interested to hear how you like it.

        Originally posted by mpc
        I don't have any experience with that Incra setup. Just looking at the pic you posted though it appears the Incra rails might have a "T" slot in the rail face that mounts to the saw? If so, with a little creative metalwork you should be able to make "L" brackets that'll attach to the Incra rails (gripping the rails to the "L" bracket via a nut inside the Incra "T" slot) and then using "T" nuts in the bottom of the Ryobi rails. Or, if you're willing to drill the Ryobi rails: drill a medium sized hole through the face that goes against the saw body, then drill a smaller hole in-line with it through the outer face. Now you can feed a screw through the larger hole, out the front of the Ryobi rails, into nuts in the Incra rails. The Ryobi rails will still attach normally to the BT3 saw, the stock fence will work when the Incra is removed, etc.

        Something about BT3 accuracy that comes to mind reading your post:
        The BT3 stand isn't the most rigid thing in the world... often alignment repeatability problems are due to the flex in the stand on uneven floors. Each time you move the saw to the carport, unless it ends up in pretty much the exact same spot as before, it's likely an uneven carport floor is twisting the whole saw enough to throw it out of alignment. Find a way to permanently note where you move the saw to for future use, or make a wood cabinet on wheels to replace the factory legs. Odds are that'll be stiffer (especially if you make a "torsion box" for the bottom piece supporting the casters) and you'll gain useful storage. You can buy "double-locking" or "dual locking" casters: these lock both the wheel from rolling and lock the castering axis as well. Much more stable than simple locking casters that only keep the wheel from turning.

        Most folks chuck the scrawny fences that come with the BT3 router mounting kit; they're more trouble than they're worth. Keep the hardware though - the knobs and T-nuts are useful on all sorts of other jigs. Get a few pieces of smooth and straight stock - MDF or plywood for stability - and make an "h" shape that straddles the stock table saw fence. Cut a mouse-hole in the tall side for bit clearance. A few threaded screws holes through the backside (the short side of the "h") lock it to the fence. You can cut a T slot on the taller side to hold a pair of sliding pieces that mimic the scrawny ones in the router mounting kit.

        Remember too a router fence doesn't have to be parallel or perpendicular to anything - you can clamp a straight board across the router tabletop to act as a fence.

        mpc

        The Incra rails actually come with L brackets that fasten on the bottom of the rails and to the front and rear edges of the table saw top where the factory fence fastens. I'm assuming the stock holes where the factory BT3000 rails fasten would work. I kinda like your idea of fastening the Incra rails to the factory Ryobi rails! The only issue is I'm afraid it would increase the saw's depth enough to prevent it from fitting through the door .

        Good thoughts on the alignment. Not only do I have to move the saw out the door, but also have to roll it down a couple of boards used as a ramp as the shop floor is about 6" above the carport floor! I have actually been contemplating building a torsion box based cabinet for the saw anyway. The Incra system would make that a necessity in order to support the new rails sufficiently.

        David

        Comment

        • LCHIEN
          Internet Fact Checker
          • Dec 2002
          • 20914
          • Katy, TX, USA.
          • BT3000 vintage 1999

          #5
          its been done. But its not a usual combination as the Incra TS costs more than the BT3000.
          Loring in Katy, TX USA
          If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
          BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

          Comment

          • David D
            Forum Newbie
            • Dec 2009
            • 65
            • Richmond, VA

            #6
            Originally posted by LCHIEN
            its been done. But its not a usual combination as the Incra TS costs more than the BT3000.
            It does cost more, but then, that's not hard to do!

            The only reason I'm considering the Incra is the fact that I can increase the speed and accuracy of my cuts and routing, and I can use the Incra on another saw if I ever get one.

            David

            Comment

            • woodturner
              Veteran Member
              • Jun 2008
              • 2047
              • Western Pennsylvania
              • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

              #7
              Originally posted by LCHIEN
              But its not a usual combination as the Incra TS costs more than the BT3000.
              That is unfortunate, but sadly true.

              I remember when a young engineer in our woodworker's club mentioned he was getting a patent on a positioning device. That turned out to be the Incra jig.

              The original Incra jig was quite reasonable, $29.95 IIRC. I still have and use several. I looked on their website, but it does not appear they sell them anymore :-(

              They sometimes turn up used, and the rest of the system could be home built - so if cost is an issue, it might be a more economical option.
              --------------------------------------------------
              Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

              Comment

              • dkerfoot
                Veteran Member
                • Mar 2004
                • 1094
                • Holland, Michigan
                • Craftsman 21829

                #8
                Just My Opinion, But...

                This is like buying a brand new $30,000 car in an effort to save money on gas. Except under extraordinary circumstances, you'll never arrive at your goal.

                You'll end up with a more complicated, harder to move and store BT3 and will never recover the amount of time you spend installing, setting up and learning the Incra.

                The saw you already own is perfectly capable of making fast, precise cuts. The projects you describe should pose no challenge at all to the BT3. Chances are, some slight adjustments and/or better understanding of the saw will fix your problems.

                As much as I hate to discourage anyone from buying shiny new toys, I really think you are heading down the wrong path here.


                Also, instead of struggling with the split router fence, remove the wood blocks and instead attach a strip of 1/2" plywood to the angle brackets. Attach to your BT3's fence and You now have a zero-clearance sacrificial router fence. Use it until it is just too worn out and then replace with another. I have a very nice custom made router table yet I nearly always use this method now. I have been using it for years because it works so well. The only drawback in most cases is lack of dust control.




                .
                Last edited by dkerfoot; 08-17-2014, 03:51 PM.
                Doug Kerfoot
                "Sacrificial fence? Aren't they all?"

                Smaller, Smarter Hardware Keyloggers
                "BT310" coupon code = 10% for forum members
                KeyLlama.com

                Comment

                • Neal
                  Established Member
                  • Apr 2012
                  • 181
                  • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
                  • Ryobi BT3000

                  #9
                  I have not used it very much at all. I have it mounted on the router table, also made by incra, but I haven't had a chance to really use it yet. Other projects have consumed my time to this point.

                  Comment

                  • Neal
                    Established Member
                    • Apr 2012
                    • 181
                    • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
                    • Ryobi BT3000

                    #10
                    May want to check out the incra stuff on ebay...you might be able to get something for a better price.

                    LS Positioner

                    Older style setup which may work very well for what you are wanting to do.

                    another one of the older setup.

                    Comment

                    • dkerfoot
                      Veteran Member
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 1094
                      • Holland, Michigan
                      • Craftsman 21829

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Neal
                      I have not used it very much at all. I have it mounted on the router table, also made by incra, but I haven't had a chance to really use it yet. Other projects have consumed my time to this point.
                      Exactly my point. It is far too easy to spend all your time and money on gadgets and then not get around to actually working wood.

                      Spend the money on lumber and make more projects using the BT3.

                      .
                      Doug Kerfoot
                      "Sacrificial fence? Aren't they all?"

                      Smaller, Smarter Hardware Keyloggers
                      "BT310" coupon code = 10% for forum members
                      KeyLlama.com

                      Comment

                      • David D
                        Forum Newbie
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 65
                        • Richmond, VA

                        #12
                        Thanks for all the replies. Sorry I haven't responded back sooner. This past week has been pretty tough between work and home. The grand finale was moving our daughter back to college Sunday. I'm beat.

                        Because I've been so busy, I haven't had much time to contemplate y'all's input. I can tell you that I want to dramatically improve on what I have. The measure, tap-tap-tap, measure, tap-tap-tap thing doesn't instill confidence when trying to adjust the fence, particularly when trying to duplicate a specific cut. Maybe that's part of the ritual of woodworking and I'm missing the point? In any case, I've got more contemplating to do on y'all's comments...


                        David

                        Comment

                        • durango dude
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 934
                          • a thousand or so feet above insanity
                          • 50s vintage Craftsman Contractor Saw

                          #13
                          I used a unique double incra-jig fence with my BT.

                          Given the chance to do it again - think i'd invest in the incra finger joint jig.

                          Comment

                          • Neal
                            Established Member
                            • Apr 2012
                            • 181
                            • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
                            • Ryobi BT3000

                            #14
                            Originally posted by dkerfoot
                            Exactly my point. It is far too easy to spend all your time and money on gadgets and then not get around to actually working wood.

                            Spend the money on lumber and make more projects using the BT3.

                            .
                            I've had the incra setup for about three weeks, not months or years. I have maybe two hours in the evenings to do things on some nights, and time on the weekends--which I use extensively.

                            I've been building cabinet carcasses over the past three weeks, four 83" tall cabinet carcasses. Kinda tough to run those through a router table for the dadoes and rabbets. The evenings have been spent sanding, applying poly, more sanding, more poly....



                            The fact I haven't "had a chance" isn't an indication of the tool collecting dust in my shop for months on end, it is not being used for current projects. I have lots of little boxes to make for general storage of things like nuts and bolts and screws and stuff. I plan on using those as a learning experience for the incra setup once the cabinets are done in the next coupe of weeks.


                            Also for an idea...Check out this image



                            This is how I kind of envision using the LS system on my BT3000, but I would like to have a second "wing" or whatever you want to call it to mount it.
                            Last edited by Neal; 08-20-2014, 12:38 PM.

                            Comment

                            • David D
                              Forum Newbie
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 65
                              • Richmond, VA

                              #15
                              Neal, that looks like a Shopsmith? I've thought about trying to use the existing Ryobi rails, but I don't know if it would be worth the trouble or not.

                              David

                              Comment

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