Crossroads

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  • Cochese
    Veteran Member
    • Jun 2010
    • 1988

    Crossroads

    I'm frustrated.

    I took on a dining room table project that I designed myself, inspired by an existing piece. I took my time measuring every little thing, I took my time setting things up. And yet I still have sloppy work to show for it. I have gaps that I have no idea how they should even exist. Stuff never lines up.

    I'm tired of doing subpar work. I know I can achieve better, but it's yet to appear in my work. Something goes airy every single time. They say the mark of a good craftsman is to not make mistakes, but to hide them. My mistakes are nearly always too big to hide.

    For example, this table. I designed it so that the base would be a square, 24". I cut the two pieces of plywood, marked off the actual dimensions of the legs, and came back out 1/2" to account for it sitting in a dado. The dado stack was measured at, or just above a 1/2". When I put it together, I have gaps of up to a half inch.

    It's not that I'm making mistakes, I can live with that. I would like to get through a single project happy with what I've done. I've yet to say that. I'm frustrated enough to start to think if I want to continue. I'm not satisfied with subpar efforts. I don't know if my shop size is really holding me back as well, along with a few of my tools.

    I know you've been in spots like this. What have you done to get past them?
    I have a little blog about my shop
  • JSUPreston
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 1189
    • Montgomery, AL.
    • Delta 36-979 w/Biesemyere fence kit making it a 36-982. Previous saw was BT3100-1.

    #2
    I feel the same way quite often. I'm also interested in what others have to say.
    "It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear."- Norm (from Cheers)

    Eat beef-because the west wasn't won on salad.

    Comment

    • Daryl
      Senior Member
      • May 2004
      • 831
      • .

      #3
      I'm sure we have all gone thru that. When things are getting away from me I will slow down, think thru all the steps, have a sturdy, level table to work on, do a pre assembly and make sure all the joints are square.
      Sometimes the old man passed out and left the am radio on so I got to hear the oldie songs and current event kind of things

      Comment

      • Sweet Willy
        Established Member
        • May 2011
        • 195
        • Near Chattanooga, TN
        • ridgid 3650

        #4
        I design just about everything I make and I have always had similar problems. Sometimes it's because I use crappy wood and things like that. But I always take the time to figure out where I went wrong. I also built a few simple things from measured drawings to get a better understanding of how it was all planned out.
        I used to do some off-road motorcycle racing. And one of the better riders I rode with always said "it's 95% rider and 5% machine". He backed that up with trading bikes with you and beating the snot out of ya with your own bike. So make sure your tools are setup as perfect as possible and recheck them often because even with mediocore tools you can still do nice work.
        One more thing, make sure you draw out your plans before you start building anything. Even if it's just a stick.
        In my old age I look back and realize how lucky I was to live in a time when common sense was common.
        Dennis

        Sweet Willy
        sigpic

        Comment

        • chopnhack
          Veteran Member
          • Oct 2006
          • 3779
          • Florida
          • Ryobi BT3100

          #5
          Knowing your plans inside and out is a step in the right direction. Actually drawing them in sketchup is a giant leap in the right direction!! This forces your idea to be transposed directly into an electronic medium that requires the parts to fit together. Its a dry run before cutting anything if you will...

          That would be step one, step two would have to be checking your setups before cutting, cutting scrap pieces for test fitting when tolerances are tight, etc.

          In your pre-planning, ask yourself if you have the necessary equipment to perform the joinery task or cutting task at hand and to perform it safely and efficiently. Many times we can start a project and end up using subpar methods of performing a task because we lack a tool to do it the right way.

          Sometimes we get crappy results because we rush to get to the end of a project and if we had taken the time to - insert here - build a jig, make a test scrap, batch process our cutting, assembling, etc we we wouldn't have to have rushed.

          Sometimes we flat out don't have the experience or skill yet, we have all been there, its an art that requires its due time to develop. HTH

          p.s. - measure less = fewer mistakes, search out info on story poles.
          I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

          Comment

          • LCHIEN
            Internet Fact Checker
            • Dec 2002
            • 20913
            • Katy, TX, USA.
            • BT3000 vintage 1999

            #6
            you have to evaluate your sources of error.
            Is it:
            1. plans are wrong, can't be made because some measurements are wrong.
            2. Measurement errors - you physically measured and marked the wrong place
            3. Wood is not straight - bowed legs will leave gaps when putting in stretchers.

            Usually there's one problem. Sometimes its a combination. You have to go back and confirm the meaurements, check the wood for straight and then decide if its 1, 2, or 3.

            Each one has its fixes. 1, if its your plan, confirm and double check your math next time. If its someone elses plan, maybe you should double check their math.
            2. if you are consistently making measurement and marking errors, is it your tools, are you distracted, or whatever. Try working when relaxed and not thinking about other things or being interrupted by the kids of missus. Make sure you know how to use your measuring and marking tools. Double and triple check your measures. mark all related pieces at the same time and make sure they line up. (or line them up and make the same mark across all of them) Use a knife edge or a sharp scribe or a sharp pencil. Get used to marking hash marks on the waste side. Use masking tape or light pencil marks to identify pieces and whats the front, left, right, top and bottom. Use stop blocks, templates and story sticks to reduce measurements to a one time used many times over. DAMHIK These things.
            3. You either have to pick straight wood or use a planer and jointer for real precise work. or have those done by an outside place (friend or lumber yard.)

            Above all, practice on small things until you get them right. Don't start on kitchen dining tables. Try boxes, step stools and side tables first. When you make our table use scrap wood to practice your cuts and fit before committing to the final good wood. Make five legs and use the best four. Yes, it'll use more wood but you can't take too many shortcuts.
            Loring in Katy, TX USA
            If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
            BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

            Comment

            • herb fellows
              Veteran Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 1867
              • New York City
              • bt3100

              #7
              I know you said you took your time, but did you end up saying 'this is the best possible 'leg' I can make when you were done, or did you think 'I've been doing this leg for 3 hours it must be right by now' without going through every little detail about the piece? It's frustrating to think you might go another 3 hours and only improve it 5%, but it's that 5% that will make all the difference in the world at the end of your project.
              Proper tools, well adjusted tools etc. aside, I find it's more often my mind set that gets in my way.
              I find this happens when I have a pre set notion in my mind of how long it should take to do a certain thing.

              As ridiculous as it sounds, I've said to myself 'well, it's been 3 hours making this dowel, I've seen it done in 3 minutes, so it must be right now'. When you are setting time parameters of any kind, that's the beginning of trouble for the finished piece.
              If it takes 10 hours, and you get it right, the next time it will take 8 hours etc. etc.
              Watching Norm make something in a half hour is frustrating, but it's also not real. First, we ain't Norm, and second, it really took him 30 hours, it's just the magic of tv!
              So the formula is 30 hours (Norm) x me (ain't Norm) = forever (or however long it takes ME to do it right).

              Speed will come with experience, expect to take as long as you need to do whatever operation you are attempting.
              Last edited by herb fellows; 09-23-2012, 05:19 AM.
              You don't need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice.

              Comment

              • Cochese
                Veteran Member
                • Jun 2010
                • 1988

                #8
                These are all great suggestions.

                If I could point to anything of the top of my head that caused it not to come together properly, it might be that the legs weren't square.

                I did plan it out in Sketchup. The legs called for legs 3.5" square, but due to some curvature the legs had to be 3.5*3.25. I suppose this could have translated to the top, bottom and sides of the box, which were all cut out of 1/2" ply before I jointed and planed the legs. The legs not being square also led to an error in tapering, but that error is minor in comparison and could be passed off as a design detail. Meaning, I could certainly live with it. I can't live with the gaps between the ply and the legs, as wood putty did not improve the look.

                I have put stain on the entire project at this point, but I've decided I'm going to remove the plywood and redo those pieces. The legs are true, those should carry through fine. If I take my time with the measurements, I think I can salvage this. Time will be the only limitation.

                Time, if I'm honest, is my major limitation in general. I get so little out there, and I get so little to retrieve supplies. I should start giving myself more lead time, and I should start buying more material than necessary to make up for mistakes. My spirit is renewed, I appreciate the time you took to reply.

                Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
                I have a little blog about my shop

                Comment

                • JR
                  The Full Monte
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 5633
                  • Eugene, OR
                  • BT3000

                  #9
                  Boy, it sounds like a rough day in the shop! Rest assured, we all have them.

                  I know I can't be on my game at all times, on every cut. I kind of try to decide which cuts I really have to concentrate on all the details, and which ones I can back off a little bit. For instance, a table top that's going to float in free space, so to speak, doesn't require that the exact dimension down to 1/32" be observerd. In that case it's more important to focus on the look, rather than the cut. I might spend more time with hand planes and scrapers on that part of the project.

                  A table base, however, generally requires tight joinery as well as symmetry. I plan cuts for length maintaining a constant impression of symmetry in my mind. If I screw up I ask myself whether I can get away with screwing up the opposite piece in the same way, or do I need to cut a new piece to the original spec.

                  When reviewing plans I'll actually make circles and arrows and notes indicating where I think these critical cuts will be.

                  As far as your current project, it sounds like you cut the pieces to fit into the dadoes, but only accounted for one dado depth, not two. If I'm wrong, it won't have been the first time.

                  JR
                  JR

                  Comment

                  • jackellis
                    Veteran Member
                    • Nov 2003
                    • 2638
                    • Tahoe City, CA, USA.
                    • BT3100

                    #10
                    I've been working on a project to build three nearly identical sets of leaning shelves for my office. The prototype, made out of construction lumber and scrap plywood, is sitting in my office right now. It helped me figure out how to cut dadoes at an angle (make a jig), how to cut the stretchers with inside curves (a work in progress), and how to put the whole thing together.

                    Now I just have to figure out how to cut and mill 8' long 2x4 sections out of rough cherry.

                    The time and materials spent making prototypes is worth it, even if I can't stand the thought of throwing away the prototype when I'm finished with it (waste not...).

                    Comment

                    • Cochese
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jun 2010
                      • 1988

                      #11
                      Originally posted by JR
                      Boy, it sounds like a rough day in the shop! Rest assured, we all have them.

                      I know I can't be on my game at all times, on every cut. I kind of try to decide which cuts I really have to concentrate on all the details, and which ones I can back off a little bit. For instance, a table top that's going to float in free space, so to speak, doesn't require that the exact dimension down to 1/32" be observerd. In that case it's more important to focus on the look, rather than the cut. I might spend more time with hand planes and scrapers on that part of the project.

                      A table base, however, generally requires tight joinery as well as symmetry. I plan cuts for length maintaining a constant impression of symmetry in my mind. If I screw up I ask myself whether I can get away with screwing up the opposite piece in the same way, or do I need to cut a new piece to the original spec.

                      When reviewing plans I'll actually make circles and arrows and notes indicating where I think these critical cuts will be.

                      As far as your current project, it sounds like you cut the pieces to fit into the dadoes, but only accounted for one dado depth, not two. If I'm wrong, it won't have been the first time.

                      JR
                      I set the legs on the ply, described the outline, and measured in correctly. But since the piece of ply was square, and the legs weren't, perhaps I turned the sheets sideways. Hopefully, I can take it apart easily since not much glue was used on those joints.

                      Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
                      I have a little blog about my shop

                      Comment

                      • chopnhack
                        Veteran Member
                        • Oct 2006
                        • 3779
                        • Florida
                        • Ryobi BT3100

                        #12
                        Jack, if the prototype is nice, try spraying it with dye, toning it and glazing it to match. You can surprise yourself sometimes ;-)
                        I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                        Comment

                        • leehljp
                          Just me
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 8429
                          • Tunica, MS
                          • BT3000/3100

                          #13
                          Jack Ellis' prototype is a good suggestion.

                          For me in most of my projects, I think the plans and dimensions through and mull on them. I usually design my own, but I don't understand doing them on sketchup. I don't know how to add the dimensions for dovetail, rabbets, dado etc but I DO know how to lay out and make adjustments for that. I can visualize and compensate when viewing the raw parts laid out.

                          The second thing that I do is that I do NOT go forward with a section until I have the right parts / wood. I built a hutch out of pine for LOML when in Japan. I had and found most of what I needed but not all. It took me a year to find just the right wood. I don't go forwards until I KNOW that I have enough of the right wood to make and finish the project.

                          Both of those above situations involve a key compontent in overcoming difficulties - patience!

                          Something else that helps me is the layout or building "sequence". At some points, some parts have to be assembled before advancing; for a good finish - some parts need the finishing coats BEFORE assembly and some AFTER assembly. These too are part of "planning ahead," which prevent lots of "gotchas".
                          Hank Lee

                          Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                          Comment

                          • Cochese
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jun 2010
                            • 1988

                            #14
                            These are all great. I won't pollute it further with my specific problems. See my kitchen table thread for details. It's good news.

                            Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
                            I have a little blog about my shop

                            Comment

                            • jwd12
                              Established Member
                              • Jun 2005
                              • 106
                              • Dyer, In..
                              • BT3100

                              #15
                              CocheseUGA,
                              Checked out your table and concluded you are very good at praying, (and woodworking)
                              I am praying for patience but extremely upset that it takes so long.

                              Comment

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