Thein Separator vrs. Cyclone questions

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  • capncarl
    Veteran Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 3564
    • Leesburg Georgia USA
    • SawStop CTS

    Thein Separator vrs. Cyclone questions

    It has been almost 1 year since I built and installed a Thein Separator on the intake of my Delta 50-760. I am tickled with the Theins performance but since I retired again I am getting more shop time and have noticed a lot more "free range dust"in my shop than I am comfortable with. Ill venture to say that a lot of this dust is coming from my sloppy sanding practices, not turning the collector on in time, sanding away from the downdraft table and using sanders without vac hookups. That said, there is about 10 gallons of pure dust in the Delta collector bag, about 6 months collection. During this time I have completely filled up a 4'x4'x2' compost bin piled high and running over. No chips or solids gets past my Thein separator.
    My question is how does this fine dust collection using the Thein separator compare to others that have cyclones like the dust deputy?
    capncarl
  • poolhound
    Veteran Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 3195
    • Phoenix, AZ
    • BT3100

    #2
    I will have the Super Dusty Deputy attached to the same 50-760 when my new shop goes live in a few weeks so no data yet but we should get a good comparison in a few months.

    Originally posted by capncarl
    It has been almost 1 year since I built and installed a Thein Separator on the intake of my Delta 50-760. I am tickled with the Theins performance but since I retired again I am getting more shop time and have noticed a lot more "free range dust"in my shop than I am comfortable with. Ill venture to say that a lot of this dust is coming from my sloppy sanding practices, not turning the collector on in time, sanding away from the downdraft table and using sanders without vac hookups. That said, there is about 10 gallons of pure dust in the Delta collector bag, about 6 months collection. During this time I have completely filled up a 4'x4'x2' compost bin piled high and running over. No chips or solids gets past my Thein separator.
    My question is how does this fine dust collection using the Thein separator compare to others that have cyclones like the dust deputy?
    capncarl
    Jon

    Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
    ________________________________

    We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
    techzibits.com

    Comment

    • jdon
      Established Member
      • Feb 2010
      • 401
      • Snoqualmie, Wash.
      • BT3100

      #3
      A narrower slot width in the Thien baffle is supposed to improve separation of finer dust- but with a greater chance of clogging with larger chips. If not too hard, you might try making a new baffle with, say, a 7/8" wide slot, instead of the "standard" 1-1/8" slot.

      Comment

      • capncarl
        Veteran Member
        • Jan 2007
        • 3564
        • Leesburg Georgia USA
        • SawStop CTS

        #4
        jdon, I don't remember the slot width in my Thein baffle but I think that I did reduce the size, probably close to .75.
        I really would like t see a side by side comparison of the Thein vrs super dust deputy. Throw in a gallon of plant chips and gallon of sanding powder and see what happens.
        My Wynn nano filter should arrive this week and I may rebuild my Thein at that time. I want to make its circumference as large as will fit under the fan housing and frame. I may play with making it have 2 or more turns in the air spiral if there is room. It's already 12-14" tall and I can stretch that a couple of inches where the garbage can just squeaks in.
        capncarl

        Comment

        • capncarl
          Veteran Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 3564
          • Leesburg Georgia USA
          • SawStop CTS

          #5
          I know everyone has pucker moments, like when you almost drop your phone in the toilet, nearly get hit up side your head when the table saw throws a fit. Yesterday I was cleaning up under the table saw, the pile I had pushed under it with a broom rather than pick it up, with the open end of the 4" dust collector hose. That thing sucked up an orange mechanics shop rag before I could stop it! My first thoughts were, if that thing gets stuck in the pipes I'll have to take it all apart to find it, then what if it gets to the separator and into the fan wheel? Luckily the Thein spit it into the garbage can, so I emptied it like nothing had ever happen.

          Comment

          • atgcpaul
            Veteran Member
            • Aug 2003
            • 4055
            • Maryland
            • Grizzly 1023SLX

            #6
            I have a Thein in the ring of my HF DC. My Wynn filter does get caked if I'm not good about keeping up on the cleanup--which I'm not--so I'm not a good test case. My Dust Deputy on the shopvac does an excellent job of separating dust. I also use it to vacuum out the ash from my Big Green Egg. My shopvac canister and filter stay very clean.

            I was so impressed with the Dust Deputy that I bought a Super Dust Deputy (molded plastic version) over Christmas and will be modifying my HF DC to accept it.

            Fine Woodworking did a review of add-ons to single stage DCs and the SDD (metal version) won best overall. They also mentioned the Thein baffle was a very good alternative to commercial options. IIRC, the Thein allowed for more initial suction than the SDD but that decreased over time compared to the SDD which maintained consistent suction--presumably because the filters didn't clog up as much from the fine dust.

            Here's a link to the issue. For some reason I am able to browse the whole magazine without logging in. The article starts on page 46.



            Paul

            Comment

            • dbhost
              Slow and steady
              • Apr 2008
              • 9209
              • League City, Texas
              • Ryobi BT3100

              #7
              I can't fault the Thien for my shop dust. I CAN fault my failure to use the dust collector, and overall just less than fantastic suction from the HF DC...

              I would LOVE to step up to a 3+ HP cyclone, but funds just don't permit it... Of course I am always open to donations!
              Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

              Comment

              • JimD
                Veteran Member
                • Feb 2003
                • 4187
                • Lexington, SC.

                #8
                I also use a dust deputy on my shop vacumn with great results. When I get my old Delta 400 (1hp) DC set up in the new shop it is very likely to be outside and pulling through a super dust deputy. Bill Pentz reports on a Thien versus a cyclone in his results. He finds the thien good at minimizing chips into the DC but poor at getting fine dust. So the filter clogs about at the same rate and what gets past the filter stays around for us to breathe. That's what I think Bill Pentz reported and it seems to be what I found with my Thien on my Delta. The Thien is a good thing, it is just ineffective against fine dust. Cyclones do not get all the find dust but they get quite a bit of it. I have used my shop vacumn on drywall dust and sander dust and almost none of it made it past the dust deputy. I haven't had to clean the HEPA filter in my shop vacumn or empty the shop vacumn.

                Comment

                • All Thumbs
                  Established Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 322
                  • Penn Hills, PA
                  • BT3K/Saw-Stop

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JimD
                  I also use a dust deputy on my shop vacumn with great results. When I get my old Delta 400 (1hp) DC set up in the new shop it is very likely to be outside and pulling through a super dust deputy. Bill Pentz reports on a Thien versus a cyclone in his results. He finds the thien good at minimizing chips into the DC but poor at getting fine dust. So the filter clogs about at the same rate and what gets past the filter stays around for us to breathe. That's what I think Bill Pentz reported and it seems to be what I found with my Thien on my Delta. The Thien is a good thing, it is just ineffective against fine dust. Cyclones do not get all the find dust but they get quite a bit of it. I have used my shop vacumn on drywall dust and sander dust and almost none of it made it past the dust deputy. I haven't had to clean the HEPA filter in my shop vacumn or empty the shop vacumn.
                  The department of energy report shows using the Thein separator to get the finest stuff after conventional cyclones. They say they work better. So I'm going to build a Thein.

                  Comment

                  • atgcpaul
                    Veteran Member
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 4055
                    • Maryland
                    • Grizzly 1023SLX

                    #10
                    Since I'll be reconfiguring the HF DC to accept the SDD, I needed couplers to join the two together as well as connect to my 4" hose.

                    I printed the 5" to 4" coupler last week but the 5" side was a tad too small so the enlarged version is printing now.

                    The larger 6" to 5" coupler was a challenge. After I modeled it in Sketchup, exported to STL, and loaded it into MakerWare, I learned the part was too big for our Makerbot 2X and 2--max width is 6" and this part is something like 6 1/4" in diameter. I spoke to our resident Makerbot guru and he said just print it in 2 halves and glue them together with acetone--the 2X uses ABS plastic.

                    So that's what I did last night. I printed them together to save time. 9+ hrs later:




                    After I removed the "rafts" at the bottom of the piece:



                    The solid 5" to 4" coupler is quite sturdy. That being said, in the new DC configuration, these couplers won't be load bearing so I'm not too concerned about the strength of the seam. I will wrap some gorilla tape or actual aluminum duct tape around this piece to strengthen it.

                    Paul

                    Comment

                    • bigstick509
                      Veteran Member
                      • Dec 2004
                      • 1227
                      • Macomb, MI, USA.
                      • BT3100

                      #11
                      Very cool Paul, we have talked about getting a 3D printer and the price point is becoming more attractive. Any advise on make or what to look for.

                      Mike

                      "It's not the things you don't know that will hurt you, it's the things you think you know that ain't so." - Mark Twain

                      Comment

                      • atgcpaul
                        Veteran Member
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 4055
                        • Maryland
                        • Grizzly 1023SLX

                        #12
                        Originally posted by bigstick509
                        Very cool Paul, we have talked about getting a 3D printer and the price point is becoming more attractive. Any advise on make or what to look for.
                        I'm going to start a new thread in Tools so as not to veer this one from the original topic.

                        Comment

                        • capncarl
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 3564
                          • Leesburg Georgia USA
                          • SawStop CTS

                          #13
                          Nice looking fittings! Was the thickness a choice or just the way the machine works?

                          You could strengthen the coupling with fiberglass cloth/fiberglass or epoxy resin. 2 or 3 wraps with the glass cloth and saturate with the resin and it will be indestructible.

                          I'm wondering if you could chuck up a sch 40 or even 80 pvc coupling in the lathe and heat it with a heat gun and enlarge it like they form sheet metal bowls?

                          I plan on making some of my specialty fittings of the Thein upgrade using fiberglass. I hate using fiberglass in the shop but it is too cold to do it outside. It only stinks for a couple of days though!

                          capncarl

                          Comment

                          • atgcpaul
                            Veteran Member
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 4055
                            • Maryland
                            • Grizzly 1023SLX

                            #14
                            Originally posted by capncarl
                            Nice looking fittings! Was the thickness a choice or just the way the machine works?
                            I chose the 1/8" wall thickness. I think the printer has a resolution of 0.2mm (don't quote me on that) so it's pretty flexible.


                            Originally posted by capncarl
                            I'm wondering if you could chuck up a sch 40 or even 80 pvc coupling in the lathe and heat it with a heat gun and enlarge it like they form sheet metal bowls?
                            I know how to switch on my lathe, but that's it for now. I have read that people have heated up PVC fittings to make them fit, though.

                            Comment

                            • poolhound
                              Veteran Member
                              • Mar 2006
                              • 3195
                              • Phoenix, AZ
                              • BT3100

                              #15
                              Paul, I am just in the process of attaching my SDD to my Delta 50-760. adapting the 5" outlet to the 4" PVC was easy with a standard rubber coupling.

                              The 6" to 5" connection is proving a real pain. I want it as short as possible and have not yet been able to find anything off the shelf that will do it easily or cheaply. I did find a special rubber plumbing coupling but is special order and would be $44 plus shipping!

                              Is it expensive to print these parts? Might I ask if you were able to create one for me how much it might be? If it would cause you issues feel free to say NO.

                              Right now I am considering making a bunch of MDF doughnuts to create a custom transition so am open to all other ideas and suggestions.

                              Originally posted by atgcpaul

                              The larger 6" to 5" coupler was a challenge. After I modeled it in Sketchup, exported to STL, and loaded it into MakerWare, I learned the part was too big for our Makerbot 2X and 2--max width is 6" and this part is something like 6 1/4" in diameter. I spoke to our resident Makerbot guru and he said just print it in 2 halves and glue them together with acetone--the 2X uses ABS plastic.


                              Paul
                              Jon

                              Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                              ________________________________

                              We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                              techzibits.com

                              Comment

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