New Shop in the Works

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  • poolhound
    Veteran Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 3195
    • Phoenix, AZ
    • BT3100

    New Shop in the Works

    Hi guys yes it is me back from the wilderness. The last few years have been really hectic with work and life and my woodworking was minimal to say the least. I hope that will all be changing soon and I am in the process of converting the external building we had used as a game room into a dedicated shop - YES!!!

    I have had a few issues to deal with (more on that later) but for now I am looking for ideas, inspiration and learning from others who have been through this before. I will be sending some photos and basic plans but essentially I have a space approx 17'x13' to play with. There are only a couple of windows which dont really get in the way and the door (36") is central to one of the 13' ends.

    All I really know right now is that my BT will be setup across the room biased toward the door end to allow for greater than half the length of the room if I had to rip long stock with the door open. It seems logical that my DC fills one of the spaces either side of the door.

    I am pretty sure I will build something to support a CMS (hoping to snag one of the newer bosch sliders) somewhere on a sidewall and am still toying with some combo of outfeed come assembly table possibly with downdraft capability built in.

    Other than this I have a clean slate so am open to any and all great ideas especially if I can avoid mistakes I will regret later.

    Thanks in anticipation and looking forward to catching up with some old friends.
    Jon

    Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
    ________________________________

    We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
    techzibits.com
  • cork58
    Established Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 365
    • Wasilla, AK, USA.
    • BT3000

    #2
    I would put the dust collector outside! I lived with mine inside for a few years and am soooooooooo happy that it is outside in its own little room.
    Cork,

    Dare to dream and dare to fail.

    Comment

    • Eric
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2003
      • 653
      • Cocolalla, ID
      • Grizzly G0691 & BT3100

      #3
      I saw a Woodsmith show on PBS that had a nice idea on some wall storage using a french cleat system; http://www.woodsmithshop.com/episodes/season8/805/ which might be handy for that small of a space.

      I'd think about having the CMS mounted on it's own station, have about 8 1/2' on one side of it and have the other go out the door, if that's possible. I've got mine mounted along one wall and have cabinets on either side of it and find it really handy with a fence and stops.

      DC outside would be good, if you're not worried about losing conditioned air. I've got mine plumbed downstairs in my shop, which makes it cleaner and easier to remove the sawdust. Plus keeps the noise down and frees up some floor space.

      Maybe make cabinets so that you can store some of the less used tools under the counter tops. Like if you have a jointer or maybe the table saw..

      Comment

      • atgcpaul
        Veteran Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 4055
        • Maryland
        • Grizzly 1023SLX

        #4
        Is it possible to store your lumber outside of this space? Although I have nearly all my lumber off the floor and on wall racks, it eats up a lot of wall space. It doesn't help that I have way more than I need right now, though.

        Comment

        • lrr
          Established Member
          • Apr 2006
          • 380
          • Fort Collins, Colorado
          • Ryobi BT-3100

          #5
          I've got a basement shop that is about 350 sq. ft., so space has always been an issue. But when I set out to create the shop, I knew that sufficient power was not going to be a concern. I wanted plenty of electrical capacity -- both 110V, and 220V. Our basement only had one 15A circuit, which basically powered one wall outlet at the base of the staircase, and 4 pull-chain porcelain light fixtures. I had a subpanel installed so I could have the 110V and 220V power I needed for the shop, but also an adjoining family room, and bathroom.

          I have a 220V dust collection system now, but one thing that helped in the early days was multiple 110V/20A circuits, so that I was not running a saw and a shop vac on the same circuit, and potentially tripping the breakers. To clearly mark each of my 20A circuits, I used different color outlets -- white, gray, etc. Makes it easy to select two different outlets for tool and vac. Ideally you want to have the multiple circuits going to the same general location, so you could have multiple circuits in the same wall boxes throughout the shop, or at least install separate boxes next to each other to house the two different circuits. I have open ceilings in my shop, and I also installed a 3rd 20A circuit for convenient drop to a large workbench, for powering my track saw, and eliminating the chance of tripping over the cord.

          Have fun designing your shop!
          Lee

          Comment

          • JimD
            Veteran Member
            • Feb 2003
            • 4187
            • Lexington, SC.

            #6
            My extra shop garage is about done. It has a steel regular door at one end and a 9 foot garage door at the other and is 14'x24'. I have lights and one 20A outlet. My light circuit powers 8 13W flourescents so only about an amp draw. I plan to have an outlet or two on that circuit and will probably run my 1hp DC on it. Other tools will go on the 20A circuit. That is what I did in my last garage and it worked well.

            I have 5/8 fire rated drywall on the ceiling because there is a bedroom above the shop. The walls are bare studs at the moment but will be covered by 7/16 waferboard. I will give it a skim coat of drywall compound and white ceiling paint. I like the waferboard because it is sturdy and I can hang things anywhere I want.

            The narrower side will get the radial arm and 12 inch CMS and a long bench with stops for cross cutting. I may put log hardwood boards on a rack above this cross cutting station. Tool storage will be in drawers below the cross cutting tools. I'm not sure about the other side right now. It may have a couple benches.

            Comment

            • capncarl
              Veteran Member
              • Jan 2007
              • 3564
              • Leesburg Georgia USA
              • SawStop CTS

              #7
              JimD
              Have you considered adding a 1/4 or 3/8 drywall on top of the wafer board for added fire protection since you already have the ceiling fire rated? My stick built shop has Osb walls and plywood ceilings, which seemed good at the time but now that it is full of tools and sawdust everywhere it might not have been such a good idea. That bugger would burn really fast!
              capncarl

              Comment

              • JimD
                Veteran Member
                • Feb 2003
                • 4187
                • Lexington, SC.

                #8
                No, I wouldn't put drywall on the walls of the shop for fire protection. It is too much work and too fragile for what I think is a small benefit. I need to keep this shop less dusty than the last one but it will need to contain wood and that is combustable material. But the wall studs are just as flammable. I'm not worried enough to cover the waferboard, I guess.

                Comment

                • poolhound
                  Veteran Member
                  • Mar 2006
                  • 3195
                  • Phoenix, AZ
                  • BT3100

                  #9
                  Thanks for the replies thus far. I agree 200% with the comments about electrics and I had already had my garage shop kitted out with a separate sub panel that supplied 4 individual 20A circuits.

                  The outbuilding I am converting was built many years before we bought this house and thankfully they did include a 50A subpanel currently with 3 x 20A circuits plus one just for the wall AC unit. One of the circuits supplies multiple outlets (approx 10) all over the place. One other has just 2 outlets and the last only a single outlet. I have no idea why it was wired this way but I am planning a few mods. The single outlet circuit is in just the right place to dedicate to my DC so that's covered. I then will extend the one with just 2 outlets to have a couple of other locations.

                  The subpanel has spots for at least 2 additional breakers so once I have all the wall panels off to see how they ran the circuit with 10 outlets I may break that in the middle and run the other end back to a new breaker. Lastly but probably most important with the floor all up I can run a dedicated circuit to a floor outlet just for my TS and Router Table. As you can see there is loads of clearance under the floor but I guess I need to run the cable through conduit. Do I just need the standard Schd 40 grey PVC stuff? Surely I dont need the metal? Thoughts anybody?

                  With respect to my initial challenges I thought you might get a kick out of my painful first problem or at least a laugh about whoever built this thing in the first place. I was always puzzled as to why the floor was never flat which was an understatement. It was totally like an upturned saucer. Depending on where you measured there could be as much as 2" off level between the center and a corner and/or front to back. All became clear when I lifted the floor.

                  If you look at the inside photos you can see that they originally placed the floor joists across 2 foundation (I used that word advisedly) beams. These appeared to be fairly well constructed but had no real foundation and were set on just three free placed concrete blocks and then shimmed. Obviously over time the blocks settled and everything moved. The worst part which is still beyond belief is that there was no support at all under either of the side walls as the joists essentially cantilevered approx 3 feet past the beams on either side. With nothing to support the weight of the walls (and of course their shared weight of the roof) they simply bowed over the years making a nicely rounded floor - Yikes!!

                  You will see that to correct this I dug 4 proper foundations on each side which was a real pain as it had to be done without clear access to the holes being dug. There was lots of hands and knees trowel work and lots of swearing. With an 18x18x18 base and then an 8" sonotube filled with concrete I was able to jack up the structure with a bottle jack and insert and shim some doubled up 2x6s. Given that the joists were so bent its hard to get an exact measurement but I am now within about 1/8-1/4 of level all the way around. It is now being left for approx 6 weeks to let the structure re-settle itself and then I will check again and insert some final shims. I will then plane out any remaining bow and replace the flooring.

                  OMG what a pain but it will have been worth it and I will forever shake my head in amazement at whoever decided it was a good idea to build it this way in the first place - go figure!








                  Last edited by poolhound; 11-06-2014, 12:34 AM.
                  Jon

                  Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                  ________________________________

                  We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                  techzibits.com

                  Comment

                  • capncarl
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 3564
                    • Leesburg Georgia USA
                    • SawStop CTS

                    #10
                    Poolhound
                    It looks like this shop was built somewhere else and move to your location and never given a proper foundation. Our local high school shop class builds a building like this every year as a project and is sold a or auctioned.

                    I would use EMT metal conduit under the building. That way rats, dogs and other critters will not chew through the insulation. You will feel better about it being that way as well.

                    Do you have a problem with termites in you region? If so, now is the time to put in termite barriers and insecticides while you can still get under the building. Before the rattlesnakes start calling it home!

                    My shop plan was to install the dust collection piping under the floor. Has that been a consideration in your shop?

                    capncarl

                    Comment

                    • poolhound
                      Veteran Member
                      • Mar 2006
                      • 3195
                      • Phoenix, AZ
                      • BT3100

                      #11
                      Hmmmm, that could be I had not thought of that. Although, there are a number of other oddities that I would have been surprised to see if it was indeed a prefab'd structure.

                      We do get termites here and I can see a few places where they have had a nibble but no signs of any recent activity. We have had the house treated a couple of times in the 15 years we have been here so I guess they bugged out then. As you suggest it wouldn't do any harm to put some stuff down before I put the floor back.

                      WRT to the DC I have thought about how I might run it under the floor although I am trying to work on a design that has the minimum of right angles and it would certainly introduce a few when under the floor. It may not be any more than having to take it up to the ceiling so I will be thinking more on that when the time comes. I am still at the debating 4" vs 6" and PVC vs Metal stage.



                      Originally posted by capncarl
                      Poolhound
                      It looks like this shop was built somewhere else and move to your location and never given a proper foundation. Our local high school shop class builds a building like this every year as a project and is sold a or auctioned.

                      I would use EMT metal conduit under the building. That way rats, dogs and other critters will not chew through the insulation. You will feel better about it being that way as well.

                      Do you have a problem with termites in you region? If so, now is the time to put in termite barriers and insecticides while you can still get under the building. Before the rattlesnakes start calling it home!

                      My shop plan was to install the dust collection piping under the floor. Has that been a consideration in your shop?

                      capncarl
                      Jon

                      Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                      ________________________________

                      We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                      techzibits.com

                      Comment

                      • capncarl
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 3564
                        • Leesburg Georgia USA
                        • SawStop CTS

                        #12
                        It takes a lot of fan to support a 6" pipe. I tried a piece of 6"'for the main trunk with my delta unit. (Senior moment here, can't remember the #) I wasn't impressed, and after a while the performance dropped, turned out that large chips were building up on the bottom of the pipe. I changed it to 4" pvc sch 10 drain pipe and have not had any trouble with build ups.
                        A side note about dust collectors, my unit is inside because I air condition and heat my shop. I notice a nice dust patina showing up around the unit that can only be coming through the supposedly 1 micron bag. I believe that I will enclose the unit with doors that have pleated filters in them. That should keep the dust contained in the enclosure.
                        capncarl

                        Comment

                        • jussi
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 2162

                          #13
                          As mentioned storing your lumber outside will save tons of space. I simply added a little overhang on my garage and store my lumber outside.
                          I reject your reality and substitute my own.

                          Comment

                          • poolhound
                            Veteran Member
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 3195
                            • Phoenix, AZ
                            • BT3100

                            #14
                            You really capture my dilemma. Virtually every article on DC confirms that smoother metal pipe will cause much less resistance so that decision comes down to simple cost vs efficiency.

                            The size of pipe debate just makes my head hurt. Mathematically it seems fairly straight forward in that a greater cross section means more CFM. However, as you rightly imply your DC has to have a large enough impeller and enough HP to move the volume of air required.

                            This FWW article is a pretty good read.
                            Even the best dust-collection system won’t eliminate the need for occasional sweeping, but a good system will keep your broom and your lungs from wearing out prematurely. Anatole Burkin of Fine Woodworking gathered a sampling of machines and used them with his tools, which include a 10-in. cabinet saw, a 15-in. planer, an 8-in. jointer, and a 16-in. bandsaw. This article compares how they did in real use, along with offering tips on supplies and air-volume requirements. You’ll find out how to determine your dust-collection requirements and how to make sense of manufacturer specs. Burkin also discusses designing a central dust-collection system. The most economical and biggest-selling dust collectors are the two-bag, single-stage models. Burkin explains these, two-stage models, and two-stage cyclones and how they compare to one another. He also discusses the dangers of single-stage collectors and how to reduce the risk of fire.From Fine Woodworking #141


                            You do need to be an online member to get the PDF but the guts can be read here at Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/articles/ar...eid=281&page=1

                            This author's tests do seem to show better volumes with larger metal pipe although he only goes up to 5".

                            I have the Delta 50-760 1.5HP DC and I am 99% shure I am going to go for the Oneida Super Dust Deputy to turn it into a 2 stage DC. I would be really interested to hear from any others about their experience with larger than 4" PVC ducting and how it performs, especially if they have the same Delta unit I have.


                            Originally posted by capncarl
                            It takes a lot of fan to support a 6" pipe. I tried a piece of 6"'for the main trunk with my delta unit. (Senior moment here, can't remember the #) I wasn't impressed, and after a while the performance dropped, turned out that large chips were building up on the bottom of the pipe. I changed it to 4" pvc sch 10 drain pipe and have not had any trouble with build ups.
                            A side note about dust collectors, my unit is inside because I air condition and heat my shop. I notice a nice dust patina showing up around the unit that can only be coming through the supposedly 1 micron bag. I believe that I will enclose the unit with doors that have pleated filters in them. That should keep the dust contained in the enclosure.
                            capncarl
                            Jon

                            Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                            ________________________________

                            We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                            techzibits.com

                            Comment

                            • capncarl
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 3564
                              • Leesburg Georgia USA
                              • SawStop CTS

                              #15
                              poolhound
                              my Delta DC is also the 50-760' with a thein separator mounted under the fan, with a 30 gallon metal garbage can under that. I intend on replacing the bag filter with a Wynn Environmental .5 micron canister filter cartridge (#35a 274BLOL). 30 sf bag to 274 sf cartridge give a big boost to the unit. I believe this filter with Thein separator makes this Delta dust collector more than adequate for most small wood shops. As far as metal duct vrs pic goes, the only metal duct available in the box stores was 4' long vrs 20' for pvc. I estimate that any gain that metal gives would be lost in the numerous joints. Probably the most dust collector system velocity loss in our shops comes from corrugated hoses.
                              capncarl

                              Comment

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