More power needed in my garage...

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  • Neal
    Established Member
    • Apr 2012
    • 181
    • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
    • Ryobi BT3000

    More power needed in my garage...

    My "shop" is basically a one car garage that has to be shared with a car. (I back the car out to do whatever I want, or work on the driveway). However, I have a small problem with ample electricity.

    I can run my saw (bt300) by itself, usually, but if I add the shop vac I frequently trip the breaker (especially if there is any resistance against the saw blade, ie feeding too fast).

    The problem is my garage is on the same circuit as my laundry room (which runs a fridge and freezer plus a washing machine), lights, etc. I need more power. (the house is a split level with the garage under the family room) The main panel is on the other side of the house from the garage, and is in my bedroom.

    Problem is, I don't know how to get more power (ie a subpannel or something else) to my garage. I have about 4 "dead" 30 amp 220 v circuits in my panel. By "dead" I mean they were used at one time to power electric baseboard heaters. Those heaters have been removed from service and terminated behind the wall.

    I really don't want to make a big mess trying to get more juice to the garage, but I would love to have about 4 to 5 dedicated circuits, with one of them possibly being a 220V, but I would settle for 4 120v 15 or 20A circuits. Doing a major tear up of drywall/etc is not going to go well with my wife.

    Any ideas or thoughts about how to approach this?
  • tfischer
    Veteran Member
    • Jul 2003
    • 2343
    • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
    • BT3100

    #2
    Do one of the "dead" baseboard circuits terminate anywhere near the garage? If so you could put a small subpanel off of one of those circuits. This would give you 30A per leg (60A total for 120V circuits).

    I essentially did the same thing in my garage - I extended an old unused 30A dryer circuit. I have 4 20A breakers in that subpanel. This obviously exceeds the 60A total, but the 30A breaker in the main panel protects from that, and it gives me the flexibility to pull 20A from one circuit and 10 from the other, for example (this was recommended to me by a licensed electrician).

    Comment

    • dbhost
      Slow and steady
      • Apr 2008
      • 9209
      • League City, Texas
      • Ryobi BT3100

      #3
      My main was damaged during Hurricane Ike, so I used the opportunity to upgrade the main to a much larger panel and pulled a new leg 60 amps 220V to the shop, then split it out to 110 and 220V circuits... The difference is huge.

      If you have dead circuits, and it depends on the panel of course, but you might just be able to pull the dead wire out, and feed new proper size wire to feed a sub panel in your shop. I went with 60 amps to feed my compressor / dust collector on one, tools on the other, and HVAC on the third. Lighting is still on the pre existing circuit. All is well and good in shop land. I would not go for anything under 60 amps, especially if you are going to be using heat or AC in your shop!
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      Comment

      • Neal
        Established Member
        • Apr 2012
        • 181
        • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
        • Ryobi BT3000

        #4
        Thank you both.

        In fact, one of the old baseboard heaters was located right above the garage. It would simply entail pulling the baseboard away from the wall, and drilling a hole through the floor, Connecting wires together and running it into the garage through the ceiling. Something that is likely doable.

        I'm not sure how you get 60A and 220V from one 30A circuit....but that goes beyond my basic understanding of electricity.

        Thanks for the input. Gives me some things to think about.

        Comment

        • dbhost
          Slow and steady
          • Apr 2008
          • 9209
          • League City, Texas
          • Ryobi BT3100

          #5
          Originally posted by Neal
          Thank you both.

          In fact, one of the old baseboard heaters was located right above the garage. It would simply entail pulling the baseboard away from the wall, and drilling a hole through the floor, Connecting wires together and running it into the garage through the ceiling. Something that is likely doable.

          I'm not sure how you get 60A and 220V from one 30A circuit....but that goes beyond my basic understanding of electricity.

          Thanks for the input. Gives me some things to think about.
          You don't. You get 60 amps and 220V from 1 60 amp circuit.

          Someone smarter than me might be able to tell you how to get 60 usable amps @ 220V with your 2 30 amp circuits, but I suspect the best route is to pull the abandoned wire, use one of the empty slots for a 60 amp feeder breaker, and pull appropriate gauge wire (size of which escapes me now) into the sub panel. Then break it out into your circuits...

          Broken out into parts and labor above just the main panel replacement, my sub panel circuits, including inspection cost me $300.00 in 2012. (I had to self pay for the main panel replacement, the insurance was NOT helpful with that... They were comfortable with banging sheet metal back together, I was NOT...). All told parts and labor for my main, and sub panel, including copper in 2012 pricing, I had about $900.00 into it. The main was most of the labor, and the main panel was hugely more expensive than the sub... by a factor of about 4, but it included breakers...

          Whatever way you go, get a trustworthy electrician in there to look it over with you, and go over your plans. You might be amazed at how low $$ you may be able to get away with... He / she may have some ideas for re-utilizing your existing circuits to get the power you need, and then re-distributed to your shop properly from those...
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          Comment

          • tfischer
            Veteran Member
            • Jul 2003
            • 2343
            • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
            • BT3100

            #6
            You will will will have 30A of 220V power, or you will have two 120V legs of 30A power, for a total of 60A if you only have 120V circuits. I was assuming you only needed 120V power. If I missed a detail where you actually need 220V power, I apologize.

            I will say that based on the questions you're asking and your own admission of your "basic understanding of electricity" it would be good to bring in an electrician and explore your options. If they decide to put in a subpanel from an old baseboard circuit, that shouldn't be too expensive. But they might have some better options as well.

            -Tim

            Comment

            • LCHIEN
              Internet Fact Checker
              • Dec 2002
              • 20920
              • Katy, TX, USA.
              • BT3000 vintage 1999

              #7
              I agree with Tim's last post.

              it sounds like an electrician could put in a 30A subpanel from which you could run a number of 120V circuits.

              Potentially you could run more circuits like 2 20-A or 3 15-A circuits on each leg giving 4 20-A circuits or 6 15A circuits.
              Yes that would be more power than the sub panel is rated for but the sub panel would be breakered to prevent that and you will seldom really be loading all circuits to their max at the same time. Its something to discuss with your electrician.

              Given that the 220V 30A is terminated nearby will save you a lot on running wires and tearing up the house.

              Your saw is rated at up to 15A and this is load dependent as you noted. it might draw 6A just spinning and 15A when resawing thick wood. THe shop vac is typcially drawing 6, 8 10 or 12A all the time (depending upon the rated power of the vac) independent of the work the saw is doing. Thus its no surprise you sometimes trip breakers when doing tougher sawing jobs.
              Last edited by LCHIEN; 04-21-2014, 03:10 PM.
              Loring in Katy, TX USA
              If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
              BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

              Comment

              • JimD
                Veteran Member
                • Feb 2003
                • 4187
                • Lexington, SC.

                #8
                The shop in the house I am selling has 1 20A circuit for tools and one 15A lighting circuit I also ran a 1hp DC from. I think that is the minimum. You want the lights on a separate circuit. It also sounds like you can have more than that without pulling wires all the way from the box. If your house is over a crawl space, pulling wires is not necessarily a huge deal. If it is over a basement that is finished, it is (unless you can run through an unfinished attic).

                A 220V circuit has two hot legs and a common wire. Each of the hot legs can power a 110V circuit. So a 30A 220V circuit can be 2 30A 110V circuits. In reality 30A 110V is not really done (at least in my experience) and you'd be talking of 4 15A circuits or 3 20A circuits. 15A is a bit light for the BT3100, I prefer 20A for tools. So maybe 2 20A for tools and a 15A for lighting. That would be a well powered shop, at least by my standards. It doesn't give you a 220V circuit but without an additional feed, I don't know how you do that.

                Comment

                • Neal
                  Established Member
                  • Apr 2012
                  • 181
                  • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
                  • Ryobi BT3000

                  #9
                  Thanks to all. Good stuff, really.

                  I will get an electrician involved. I have done some basic wiring with 110V general stuff, but I'm not comfortable tapping into a panel or doing much with the "big stuff." I have a couple of family members who are, I will speak to them about this.

                  I do not need a 220V circuit given my current tool collection. I'm really not sure I would ever need one, especially if I remain in this house. (there is no room for a monster table saw or high powered dust collector, I can dream I suppose!) A couple of 20A circuits and a 15A would be more than adequate, I think. I can only run so many things at one time (ie a shop vac in conjunction with my BT3000) It isn't a production shop, so there is no need to go overboard.

                  Unfortunaely there is no crawl space, and the garage sits right under the living room. Using the wires from one of the old baseboard heaters is a possibility, and may be the most economical option. It is directly overhead, and I may be able to easily get to it with minimal invasive work and mess (which keeps the mrs off my backside).

                  Comment

                  • dbhost
                    Slow and steady
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 9209
                    • League City, Texas
                    • Ryobi BT3100

                    #10
                    Well from a reality perspective. Mine was wired with the perspective that this would be, and would always remain a one man shop thus...

                    #1. Lighting stayed on the existing lighting circuit. As did the overhead air filter. They work fine there, no need to move them.
                    #2. My HF 2HP dust collector pulls 20 amps, as does my 2HP air compressor. Only on startup, but I don't want to throw breakers or overheat wires. They will not be run simultaneously, so they share a circuit.
                    #2. I can only use one tool at a time, thus the tool circuit is a 20 amp circuit, dedicated to the tool outlets. It's not like I can use the table saw, and the lathe at the same time...

                    If you live in a mild climate, you can stop there. I don't so I can't.

                    #3. Living in coastal Texas, I can easily deal with the coldest winters, but summers here are a bear. I MUST have Air Conditioning or I am not in the shop for very long. I have a 13.5K BTU portable AC unit that pulls 15 amps. I have it on a circuit dedicated to HVAC. I use it to run the AC, and a box fan. The AC is great, but the fan in it is puny, and needs help. With my box fan, and the AC, I can easily move the air around and keep the shop comfortable on the hottest coastal Texas days...

                    All 3 primary circuits are run with both 110V and 220V, such that if I wanted to add say a 220V compressor, table saw, or a small 220V AC unit... I could.

                    If I had only 110V, and knew I would never need 220V, I wouldn't spend the extra $$ to get 220V pulled in. However if you are likely to upgrade in the future, now is the time to do it.
                    Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

                    Comment

                    • LCHIEN
                      Internet Fact Checker
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 20920
                      • Katy, TX, USA.
                      • BT3000 vintage 1999

                      #11
                      you probably need a minimum of four circuits
                      1. Power tool on one, assuming you won't run more than one tool, like dave says, one-man shops need only one tool on
                      2. Air compressor - can come on at any time - intermittent high load
                      3. Dust collector (or Shop vac as a dust collector)- continuous high load
                      4. lights and auxiliary stuff, radio, air filter, beverige fridge etc. My 6 fluorescent overhead lights fixtures are on a circuit which is not the same as the original two bare bulb sockets so I have backup lighting.

                      Nice to have another for drills, chargers, sanders, shop vac etc. Intermittent loads

                      If you have AC or heat the you probably need one more. continuous or intermittent high load.
                      Last edited by LCHIEN; 04-22-2014, 09:55 AM.
                      Loring in Katy, TX USA
                      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
                      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

                      Comment

                      • All Thumbs
                        Established Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 322
                        • Penn Hills, PA
                        • BT3K/Saw-Stop

                        #12
                        I thought that for a sub he needs two hots, a neutral, and a ground? Will the old heaters have all four conductors?

                        Comment

                        • Neal
                          Established Member
                          • Apr 2012
                          • 181
                          • Williamstown, WV (Mid Ohio Valley)
                          • Ryobi BT3000

                          #13
                          Originally posted by All Thumbs
                          I thought that for a sub he needs two hots, a neutral, and a ground? Will the old heaters have all four conductors?
                          I can't honestly remember if they did or not, which I should, because I replaced the one which is still in use (bathroom) not long ago, and I pulled the others out. I'm pretty sure I remember black red and white. But I'll let the electrician look it over and tell me.

                          Comment

                          • JimD
                            Veteran Member
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 4187
                            • Lexington, SC.

                            #14
                            My air compressor is small and didn't run unless I was using the air for something. If I was using a nailer, I wasn't using the table saw. So I ran it off the 1 20A circuit. My DC was 1 hp and ran off the light circuit. Not ideal. But with two 20A circuits I would run the DC off one and use the other for tools. My old shop was in the basement, insulated, and had conditioned space above it and on one side of it. Another side was buried. It never got too hot or too cold for me despite no deliberate attempt to heat or cool it. So no HVAC load.

                            I think 3 is the minimum for a "good" shop assuming 120V loads. That hinges on not leaving the compressor running while using power hungrey tools. I did not find that to be difficult to accomplish. One man shop = one tool at a time (except for DC). I could have also used and air filter but it would be a more appropriate device to go on the lighting circuit (less draw).

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