Why was cabinetman banned?

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  • gerti
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2003
    • 2233
    • Minnetonka, MN, USA.
    • BT3100 "Frankensaw"

    #16
    Hmm... I sure hope c'man had more warning than we did. And I hope it wasn't a result of the GZ thread, which IMHO

    - should have been closed right away
    - moderators should have refrained from posting to and thus implicitly making it an acceptable subject

    Nobody makes anyone read everything written on these forums. I know I have often benefitted from c'mans wisdom. And sometimes thought he had too much time on his hand and skipped threads.

    Like others though I have not seen anything suggesting such a harsh punishment (or any punishment at all). I assume there was something and it has been deleted. If not, these are very sad times for this forum.

    Gerd

    Comment

    • chopnhack
      Veteran Member
      • Oct 2006
      • 3779
      • Florida
      • Ryobi BT3100

      #17
      There is some valuable feedback here. Some good points are being raised about the forum.

      First we are the most friendliest site on the internet. We freely speak our minds and are unafraid to do so. This in itself is civility at its finest. We also are very tolerant. We may not agree with many ideas but we tolerate the speaker who says them. If we can tolerate some members who make extraordinary, yet unsubstantiated claims of works they have produced surely we can tolerate someone who may state their convictions frankly.

      Second our content is on the decline and our long standing members are even fewer. I believe c-man was in the top 3 of active posters with a long history here. Obviously there is friction between him and some members, but to outright ban him seems presumptuous and abusive. I and many others have benefited from his participation. As a community I think it fair that we should at least vote on something so extreme.

      Third, perhaps we should address our forum's structure. Perhaps a modification of categories and additions would be on order. I sometimes have felt odd about posting something and where to post it.

      My 2 cents, if this ever gets read
      I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

      Comment

      • Cochese
        Veteran Member
        • Jun 2010
        • 1988

        #18
        There's a difference between being active and being active and productive. Most of his threads had nothing to do with woodworking. I'm all for the occasional off topic post, but was becoming obscene. I'm not sure how anyone does any woodworking at all with that much posting.

        Anyone that ever questioned him got turned into a permanent argument. Might have had a wealth of knowledge, but few manners.

        Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
        I have a little blog about my shop

        Comment

        • os1kne
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2003
          • 901
          • Atlanta, GA
          • BT3100

          #19
          I've been a member here for around 10 years, many others on this forum have been as well. I don't visit the forum as often as I used to, due to a longer commute and family, I don't spend as much time online as I used to. I don't post a lot, mostly because I don't have a lot of advice to offer - or anything that I would post had already been posted. I have definitely gotten more from the forum over the years than I've given, and I keep coming back because it is probably the nicest, most helpful forum online.

          Cabinetman has been a fixture on the forum for most of that time. He has definitely contributed more good advice to the forum than most. I can see how he could rub someone the wrong way at times, but I've never felt that he'd "crossed the line". He's certainly done more good than "bad".

          I appreciate what the moderators do and respect their decision, but he will be missed and I wish him well.
          Bill

          Comment

          • kramer katt
            Established Member
            • Aug 2004
            • 375
            • SO CAL, USA
            • BT3100 and Craftsman 100

            #20
            I have been a very infrequent poster but member and lurker for 9 years (where did all that time go?). Of all the internet interest groups that I touched down on, this and OWWM are the only two that have keep my interest. The way these two forums are run is a large part of what kept me coming back and learning from the talented people who frequent the site. Numerous time I have seen the wisdom of how the site is moderated. Compared to other sites with looser standards or uneven enforcement, it is obviously a wonderfully place that these people have created and maintained. I know there are newer people at the helm now but I think they are certainly keeping everything in the spirit that this site was born. My kudos to you and may all the second guessers please take a closer look before you criticize.
            Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler
            --Albert Einstein

            Comment

            • ironhat
              Veteran Member
              • Aug 2004
              • 2553
              • Chambersburg, PA (South-central).
              • Ridgid 3650 (can I still play here?)

              #21
              Originally posted by chopnhack
              There is some valuable feedback here. Some good points are being raised about the forum.

              First we are the most friendliest site on the internet. We freely speak our minds and are unafraid to do so. This in itself is civility at its finest. We also are very tolerant. We may not agree with many ideas but we tolerate the speaker who says them. If we can tolerate some members who make extraordinary, yet unsubstantiated claims of works they have produced surely we can tolerate someone who may state their convictions frankly.

              Second our content is on the decline and our long standing members are even fewer. I believe c-man was in the top 3 of active posters with a long history here. Obviously there is friction between him and some members, but to outright ban him seems presumptuous and abusive. I and many others have benefited from his participation. As a community I think it fair that we should at least vote on something so extreme.

              Third, perhaps we should address our forum's structure. Perhaps a modification of categories and additions would be on order. I sometimes have felt odd about posting something and where to post it.

              My 2 cents, if this ever gets read

              +3 on your 2 cents, chopnhack. I was gong to go to bat for c.man but it looks like I'm out numbered by the thinner skinned contingent here. I've been on the sharper end of his comments but, in retrospect, the answer buried in his comment was more to the tune of, "Geez pull yer head out of your keester. The answer's staring you right in the face". I won't try to tell you that my failing presence here is due to something said by another but, that's not true. It's health centered which doesn't allow me to anything in the shop - another cry session at another time (no, I won't put y'all through that). Please consider making the ban a temporary one. He has been good for quite a good while and his nature is to walk on the edge once in a while but hey, it makes for an interesting family~!
              Blessings,
              Chiz

              Comment

              • Hellrazor
                Veteran Member
                • Dec 2003
                • 2091
                • Abyss, PA
                • Ridgid R4512

                #22
                Only took 4 years.

                Originally posted by Black wallnut
                We have lost a large number of members over the years either directly due to his posts or indirectly due to us not silencing him. Some of these posters names would surprise many.
                I know a few of those people. Maybe I will start posting again now instead of stopping by once in a while as a lurker. I completely gave up after giving him my 2cents a few times about being a constant jerk to the newbies and got the following:

                Infractions
                Private
                Reason: Insulted Other Member(s)
                09-23-2009 01:15 PM by Black wallnut 0 / Expired

                Comment

                • cwsmith
                  Veteran Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2737
                  • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                  • BT3100-1

                  #23
                  Well I too am sorry to see him go. I don't recall ever having a problem or seeing a problem, but then perhaps I just don't pay that close attention.

                  I do think that his contributions were many and I always thought him very knowledgeable and enjoyed his many posts.

                  Sometimes I think the forum is too strict, but then the forum survives nicely and is a good place to visit because of those very rules. Like with any group or gathering I think we need to be aware of sensitivities and mind our civility. Manners are often not at the forefront of thinking, especially when we are among family and friends and feeling comfortable... we might have a tendency to feel just a little bit too comfortable in how we exchange with each other at times.

                  Early in life, I had an incident with a friend when my father made one of his "humorous" remarks on first meeting him. THAT was just "my Dad" and I know he meant nothing by it and I certainly didn't even give it a thought... BUT my friend felt really insulted and he left.

                  I too sometimes have said things, without thinking of how it might be reacted too. While I meant it to be funny, I afterwards realized that "funny" isn't perceived as such by all too many. Age doesn't always teach us the better and occasionally we slip. But the key is to learn and try to be better and understand when someone points our fault out to us. It's hard, if not impossible, to defend oneself on such occasions.

                  Forgiving is important, but not always possible, especially when one might repeat any offense. When it continues, you soon find yourself not invited to the party. Personally, I like C'Man and hope that he is able to return. I don't know (or haven't recognized) any transgressions. I only know my own faults when someone points them out to me, and when that happens it embarrasses me. For that reason, I bow to the graces of the moderators and hope that thier decisions serve the forum well, as they have in the past.

                  CWS
                  Think it Through Before You Do!

                  Comment

                  • JoeyGee
                    Veteran Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 1509
                    • Sylvania, OH, USA.
                    • BT3100-1

                    #24
                    I will miss CMan, and I hope he gets another chance.

                    That being said, I have faith that the mods did the right thing. As we all know, this is one of the best and friendliest places on the Internet and it is that way because of the moderators. Fortunately, most of us don't have to see any of the "behind the scenes" crap that they have to deal with and we don't know all that transpired. For that, I say thank you to the moderators.

                    I do hope we can somehow entice the "old timers" that have left for whatever reason to come back.

                    Also, as others have said, we need to make more of an effort to get back to the core woodworking discussions that made this board. If I have to, I will make the sacrifice for this board and go make something instead of doing chores just so I can share it later.
                    Joe

                    Comment

                    • Bruce Cohen
                      Veteran Member
                      • May 2003
                      • 2698
                      • Nanuet, NY, USA.
                      • BT3100

                      #25
                      It's taken me a while to get all this wrapped around my head. For once, I'm almost at a loss for words.
                      Me and Cab had been pretty close at one time and we each got ourselves in our share of trouble, sometimes with the two of us egging each other on.

                      One day I posted a question to another member about a somewhat difficult math problem, feeling that he was the correct person to contact. Well, I received a rather fiery email from Cab accusing me of not addressing him first. Now this was no reflection of Cab's abilities or intelligence, I felt that at the time, this other member was more "tuned in" to answer it.
                      I apologized (though I really didn't feel I had done anything to warrant onr) to Cab and never got back an answer. Tried one more time to continue our relationship to no avail and we then treated each other as strangers.
                      I know Cab's a strong willed person, but I really took this to heart, after all, I considered us to be fairly close.

                      I'm not sure what happened to his attitude to the rest of us, but whatever is was, it sure wasn't good.

                      From my observations, his posts continued to have less and less to do with woodworking and were just repeats of topics from general sites.

                      I sincerely hope that whatever caused him to "get this way" isn't permanent, as he does have the knowledge and experience to add to this forum.

                      Bruce
                      "Western civilization didn't make all men equal,
                      Samuel Colt did"

                      Comment

                      • pelligrini
                        Veteran Member
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 4217
                        • Fort Worth, TX
                        • Craftsman 21829

                        #26
                        I certainly hope the banning of Cabinetman isn't permanent. He has a wealth of good woodworking information and an incredible amount of real world experience. Loosing him from these forums isn't a good thing. There’s been many times recently where he would start up a good woodworking thread just to get a discussion started, or he’d offer up a way to do something right out of the blue. I didn’t really pay attention to many of his posts in the coffee pot.

                        I've seen some contentious posts from him and probably what could be construed as attacks on fellow members whom he perceived as disingenuous (whether deservedly or not). Sometimes I thought he was being rather overbearing about it. Was this enough to ban him? I don’t know. There’s probably a little more going on.

                        On the whole, I really do think he is worth it for our community.
                        Erik

                        Comment

                        • phrog
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jul 2005
                          • 1796
                          • Chattanooga, TN, USA.

                          #27
                          Originally posted by pelligrini
                          I certainly hope the banning of Cabinetman isn't permanent. He has a wealth of good woodworking information and an incredible amount of real world experience. Loosing him from these forums isn't a good thing. There’s been many times recently where he would start up a good woodworking thread just to get a discussion started, or he’d offer up a way to do something right out of the blue. I didn’t really pay attention to many of his posts in the coffee pot.

                          On the whole, I really do think he is worth it for our community.
                          I agree with a lot of what you have stated but, do you think that he would return given the opportunity?
                          Richard

                          Comment

                          • Stytooner
                            Roll Tide RIP Lee
                            • Dec 2002
                            • 4301
                            • Robertsdale, AL, USA.
                            • BT3100

                            #28
                            Guys, We really didn't like doing this at all. It is a permanent ban as far as I know. He wasn't banned for any one post in particular.
                            It was his entire body of work that kept us from banning him sooner.
                            He was a valuable Member of this community.

                            He has been averaging at least one complaint a month for quite some time and sometimes more than that. He has had suspensions in the past to try and affect a different manner of posting with him and while that was effective for a while, it didn't last.
                            In the past few years he has been confrontational and derogatory to several members and some where brand new ones. Calling BS on guys, just because he didn't see the proof to back up claims they may have made. That is not how we roll here. There is no requirement to do that and we should take each member at their word. To do otherwise is detrimental to the community.
                            This was going on right along side his valuable posts and he is an excellent contributor when he wants to be. He taught me a thing or two.
                            There are a few members that he is particularly adverse to and he was generally the instigator in those um....bouts.

                            As moderators, we have asked him repeatedly to ignore those guys. Plead with him really. To try and think a little before hitting the enter key. Most recently, Hank and I both asked him to let something go. He basically said that if someone says something he doesn't agree with, he'll tell it like it is. That would be commendable normally, but his way of doing that was directly against what we have asked him to do on numerous occasions.

                            So, the only one with a choice in the matter was Mike. He left us no room to choose. I can flat guarantee you that no one else will receive that many warnings before an action is taken. We really do try to let the Forum police itself and when it first started out, it did just that. I'd love to see that kind of atmosphere return and would hope that the Mod's are never needed or noticed as such.

                            Personally, I like Mike. That, however has no bearing on the decision that had to be made, though it did make it tougher. My part was done with a heavy heart as I'm sure it was by others.

                            I do apologize to many members that think we did it wrong. I'll just say there are lots of other Forums out there that do not do any moderating. You have to read 30 pissing match posts to see one on topic. No thank you.

                            Cabinetman will be missed, but we may see Mike again. We don't have a force field around the place.
                            Lee

                            Comment

                            • Ed62
                              The Full Monte
                              • Oct 2006
                              • 6022
                              • NW Indiana
                              • BT3K

                              #29
                              Originally posted by phrog
                              do you think that he would return given the opportunity?
                              I doubt he would return, and it's a shame to lose the helpful posts he's willing to make. Obviously there have been posts by him that got under other people's skin. But I for one couldn't tell you when or what it was about. I'd like to see him return giving more thought about what he's about to post, and what effect it might have on others, but I won't hold my breath.

                              When you have a family made up of such numbers as we have here, it's a given that people will occasionally rub each other the wrong way. If that happens to me a few times, I just put that person on "ignore". That goes a long way to solving a potential problem.

                              Regarding the moderators, I've been one on another forum, and I can tell you it takes someone willing to sacrifice their time, and make calls that are sometimes difficult. Therefore I wouldn't call the mods stupid for making any call, even if I wouldn't make that same call myself. Without the mods, the site would be short lived.

                              Ed
                              Do you know about kickback? Ray has a good writeup here... https://www.sawdustzone.org/articles...mare-explained

                              For a kickback demonstration video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/

                              Comment

                              • pelligrini
                                Veteran Member
                                • Apr 2007
                                • 4217
                                • Fort Worth, TX
                                • Craftsman 21829

                                #30
                                Thanks for the info Lee. I do understand the situation Cab put you guys in. While I may not totally agree with the decision, the reasoning seems sound and just.
                                Erik

                                Comment

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