Penetrating Oils

[JimD]

This was posted on another website I visit, POI Factory, and I thought I would put it here and see what comments you have. I don't have automatic transmission fluid around because both my vehicles have manual transmissions. But even if I did, I don't have acetone around and I don't care much for it. On one hand it is a great solvent but on the other hand it stinks and is so volitile it's hard to keep. Other than the ATF/acetone mixture I have tried these and couldn't argue with their results. Comments?

“Machinist Workshop Magazine” did a test on penetrating oils. Using nuts and bolts that they ‘scientifically rusted’ to a uniform degree by soaking in salt water, they then tested the break-out torque required to loosen the nuts. They treated the nuts with a variety of penetrates and measured the torque required to loosen them.
This is what they came up with:
Nothing: 516 lbs
WD-40: 238 lbs;
PB Blaster: 214 lbs;
Liquid Wrench: 127 lbs,
Kano Kroil: 106 lbs
Automatic transmission fluid/Acetone mix (50/50): 50 lbs.

The article went on to say it also makes a good gun bore cleaner. Just thought I'd pass it on.

Jim

[sweensdv]

In my limited experiences with penetrating oils Liquid Wrench has never come close to working as well as PB Blaster. I started using PB Blaster when I had a situation where repeated applications of Liquid Wrench failed to do any good. I went out and got a can of PB Blaster and after a single application the seized nut loosened up after just a few minutes.

[toolguy1000]

when i refurbished my unisaw, i found liquid wrench to be absolutely invaluable. that, and some patience to let it work it's magic. it will be a staple in my rehabbing arsenal from now on.

[chopnhack]

That is really cool! Acetone and transm. fluid... I guess the acetone thins the atf fluid helping it get past the rust? WD40 and PB blaster are pretty thin in comparison to atf fluid though... Did the article mention what they thought was behind the huge difference?

[Black wallnut]

Does it matter if you use type F or Dextron? Ed's red was/is a bore scrubber concoction that a man named Ed (Harris, I think) that formerly was on the NRA AR tech staff. He was quite active in the late days of the Reloading Forums that disappeared a few years ago.

Anyway I've read also that Hoppe's #9 bore solvent makes a great penetrating oil, I've not needed to find out since I've read that.

[LCHIEN]

ATF is widely used as the power steering fluid in many brands and makes of cars. Searching google for the words ATF and power steering fluid shows that ATF is and or can be used as power steering fluid although you would not use power steering fluid in your transmission the difference is that they are both hydraulic fluid at the base but the ATF has red dye (for ID) and some additives to make the transmission run run reliably.

Look in the car's manual and many will tell you to use ATF, so you know for sure. Even if it does not, the Power steering fluid is probably enough like the ATF to work for this penetrant.

That said, you could steal a few drops of ATF or hydraulic fluid from your power steering and probably not notice it. Then all you need is the acetone which is generally available in small quantities as nail polish remover. Apparently there are two kinds of NPR now, one that is acetone and the other is not. Make sure you read the active ingredients. Your wife/GF may already have some. Maybe you have some! (confession: I have a bottle of "Certainly Red" nail polish in my toolbox for marking things...)

Just a thought on how to try it without much investment.

[tuttlejr]

I am another PB Blaster fan. Works better than any penetrating compound that I have ever used. Just let it set for a short time.
Tip; Marvel Oil should work as well as ATF fluid.

I had some difficulty removing some camera filters. Using a Q tip I would place a very small (TINY) amount of PB Blaster on the side of the filter and then after a short while, I was able to unscrew the filter.

[LCHIEN]

...

I had some difficulty removing some camera filters. Using a Q tip I would place a very small amount of PB Blater on the side of the filter and then after a short while, I was able to unscrew the filter.

My trick for stuck camera filters is a wide rubber band.

Usually its more like they're mechanically seized (aluminum galling) rather then chemically seized. A little lube may help, but you risk getting that stuff all over the optics as those thin oils really tend to spread! Usually the mechanical seize just needs a bit more force and there's usually not a lot of bearing surface for fingers to grab onto. The rubber band is like a Gasket wrench or jar opener in miniature. Try it before chemical means.

[woodturner]

“Machinist Workshop Magazine” did a test on penetrating oils.

That test was in the April 2007 issue. A later correction noted that it was actually power steering fluid, as shown in the photos in the article, rather than ATF, that was used. Other also noted that lacquer thinner worked better than acetone - acetone forms an emulsion with the PS fluid, while petroleum distillates like lacquer thinner will actually form a solution. As a result, the acetone/PS fluid mix will not stay mixed and has to be shaken every few minutes. If you try this, make sure you are getting petroleum-based PS fluid rather than a synthetic - the synthetics won't mix well with the solvent, which is likely why people have trouble trying to make the ATF mix.

They also did not test BreakFree CLP, which is a penetrant developed for NATO military use and is available commercially. It works much, much better than any of the others tested. I conducted an informal test on rusted bolts a while back. PB Blaster did essentially nothing, Kroil did a little better, but rust and corrosion started dripping out when the BreakFree was applied. Within five minutes, the fasteners were clean and could be removed easily. BreakFree dissolves the rust and corrosion, while the others are penetrating type oils that are designed to lubricate the corrosion rather than remove it.

[leehljp]

That test was in the April 2007 issue. A later correction noted that it was actually power steering fluid, as shown in the photos in the article, rather than ATF, that was used. Other also noted that lacquer thinner worked better than acetone - acetone forms an emulsion with the PS fluid, while petroleum distillates like lacquer thinner will actually form a solution. As a result, the acetone/PS fluid mix will not stay mixed and has to be shaken every few minutes. If you try this, make sure you are getting petroleum-based PS fluid rather than a synthetic - the synthetics won't mix well with the solvent, which is likely why people have trouble trying to make the ATF mix.

They also did not test BreakFree CLP, which is a penetrant developed for NATO military use and is available commercially. It works much, much better than any of the others tested. I conducted an informal test on rusted bolts a while back. PB Blaster did essentially nothing, Kroil did a little better, but rust and corrosion started dripping out when the BreakFree was applied. Within five minutes, the fasteners were clean and could be removed easily. BreakFree dissolves the rust and corrosion, while the others are penetrating type oils that are designed to lubricate the corrosion rather than remove it.

Two items on your post:
1. I had/have some ATF (type A) from about 5 years ago that had not been opened. I mixed a cup of the ATF (red, of course) with a cup of Acetone that I also have on hand. As you said, it did not emulsify well. Yep, I had to shake it every few minutes.

This morning I had to cut my grass and the riding mower/lawn tractor lever/cable for engaging the blades were not working well. It was obvious that the cable/wire was just not giving or sliding enough. WD-40 on all cables and still not good.

I tried the mixture and I was disappointed in the lack of emulsification but decided to try it anyway. Within a minute, the blades were engaging well. I am sure some was the time of the WD-40 setting up but as I squirted and squirted the acetone/ATF and worked the lever it loosened up with each squirt and each movement of the lever, and it worked itself loose.

I have some powersteering fluid somewhere and I know I have some lacquer thinner. I will mix it and see what happens, then give it a try for the winter.

2. BreakFree (and the other oil) - my situation was not nuts and bolts but cables. Shouldn't BreakFree and other penetrants work on cables just as easily as nuts and bolts?

[woodturner]

Two items on your post:
1. I had/have some ATF (type A) from about 5 years ago that had not been opened. ...Within a minute, the blades were engaging well.

On other forums, some have reported success with older ATF as well. I think the issue is more that the synthetic ATFs don't work well in this application. From the other discussions, both ATF and PS fluid seem to work about as well, with a lot of debate about whether the "globules" in the emulsion are really small enough to do any good. Either one mixed with a petroleum distallate solvent that will mix to form a solution seems to be preferred over either one mixed with a solvent like acetone that won't mix with the fluid.

2. BreakFree (and the other oil) - my situation was not nuts and bolts but cables. Shouldn't BreakFree and other penetrants work on cables just as easily as nuts and bolts?

BreakFree should be fine, and the others may be as well. These types of oils are designed to penetrate into small porousities in the joints through capillary action, but should do that whether the rust and corrosion is in a confined space such as a threaded recess or not.

BTW, kerosene works well to soak larger items to free them up. I soaked the rusted solid tracks from a Struck minidozer in a bucket of kerosene and it freed them up pretty well. It was a less expensive alternative to any of the commercial fluids - 5 gallons of any of them would have cost more than the tracks!

The other interesting comment from the discussions on other boards is that none of the products work as well since carbon tet was restricted. Apparently it is still (legally) available in some forms for some applications, and people say it works far, far better than any of the alternatives. It's also quite hazardous - far worse than the Methyl Chloride still used in paint stripper, for example.